Forums >General Running>Heart rate control training - disappointment
Hello everybody!
I have a really nerve-racking problem, and I want to hear/write many opinions about it, so I could resolve it quickly.
I'm a trail runner and cross-country skier since 2012, but before that I also used to train.
Just for a quick introduction, this year my training runs were around 10-15 km, 3% elevation, 5:00-5:20 min/km pace.
This year I decided to buy a heart rate monitor, and after some runs I found out that I'm running with high heart rate.For example (my watch can give me an estimated VO2max value, so I noted it down):20 km, 483 m elevation, 5:13 min/km pace, 174 bpm average and 183 bpm maximum heart rate, 52 VO2max12,5 km, 327 m elevation, 5:15 min/km pace, 172 bpm average and 181 bpm maximum heart rate, 51 VO2max
I also did the maximum heart rate test, it was 195 bpm, I guess it's okay for a 20 year-old guy.I determined my heart rate zone with the Karvonen formula, and started to run in Z2.
Here are my runs with heart rate control:
date dist. elev. hr. pace VO2max1. 18th of April 9,51 km 87 m 145 bpm 7:14 min/km (11:38 min/mile) 492. 21th of April 9,50 km 89 m 145 bpm 7:33 min/km (12:09 min/mile) 47+ 23th of April 47 km cycling with easy pace, 149 bpm maximum, 138 bpm average HR
After this I tried to run again in Z2, but after the first km I realised that it's slower than the past two trainings. So at this point I had enough, and changed the maximum training heart rate to 160 bpm, which is 4 beats below the Z3 upper limit.
3. 24th of April 9,00 km 84 m 158 bpm 6:29 min/km (10:26 min/mile) 46+ 29th of April 51 km cycling with easy pace, 149 bpm maximum, 138 bpm average HR4. 30th of April 10,20 km 135 m 158 bpm 6:34 min/km (10:34 min/mile) 455. 1st of May 5,09 km 70 m 159 bpm 6:34 min/km (10:34 min/mile) 446. 4th of May 9,50 km 85 m 160 bpm 6:42 min/km (10:46 min/mile) 437. 5th of May 11,00 km 145 m 160 bpm 6:39 min/km (10:42 min/mile) 438. 6th of May 7,2 km 85 m 160 bpm 6:58 min/km (11:12 min/mile) 42
After the 7th run I thought that my slowing-down will stop, and slowly I could improve my speed, but after the last one I felt very confused, almost panicked.
Why am I getting awfully slower? And what should I do to stop this slowing-down and getting back to my original fittness?
Please give me some advices, tips, because I'm really scared of losing my fitness.
What were the temperatures? As it gets warmer your HR will be higher because your body is putting a lot of effort into keeping you from having a heat stroke.
Also, a few weeks is really hard to get a feel for whether any type of training is working or not.
My first year of HR training I got all into the dew point, humidity, etc. to justify that I wasn't getting slower. Starting out with the summer ahead of you, I would fully expect your pace to slow at the same HR simply due to the increase in temperatures.
Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)
Current PR's: Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)
Over the years I've tried heart rate control a few times. Both on the bike and the past several years running.
First, I agree with what npaden has said. Weather plays a part and you really haven't been at it long enough to really see if it will work.
Now, all that being said, I've never had good success with heart rate control. I tend to agree with the statement that if you want to be able to run fast then you have to train fast. If you don't mind going slow then train slow. For me the longer I try to control my heart rate and just go easy to keep it down the slower I get. What I do is go slow for a couple of weeks then have several hard sessions, maybe even for a week or two, until I start to feel like I'm struggling to keep up the speed. Then I go back to the slow runs to let my body recover. That's what works for me, YMMV.
Last year I was training for a 50 mile race. I kept my pace slow for most runs trying to work on endurance. I kept getting slower and slower and the runs didn't even get any easier. This year I'm going back to doing some slow runs followed by fast ones. FWIW I'm 52 years old so that may make my response different from yours.
I don't think you have enough information after 8 runs to say that you're actually getting slower. That said I've never really seen the value in HR training--running doesn't need to be any where near this complicated.
Runners run
Why do you want to slow down that much? You seem to be freaking out, and running is supposed to relax you, to bring health benefits. If running by HR stresses you out, just forget about it when you run and try to run Easy on perceived effort. Listen to the birds, look at pretty things around you, let your mind wander. When tou get home you can look at your HR numbers and see if you were running too fast or too slow, and try to adjust your pace next time. And if that still freaks you out, forget the HRM. Just run. Your fitness will improve over time. Guaranteed. By time I mean months, and years, whether you use a HRM or not.
I think what you're seeing after these 8 runs is accumulated fatigue and that usually has the effect of higher HRs.
I would do some speedwork, Tempo runs and some long slow runs and then comeback and do those same 8 runs and see what happens.
Disclaimer. Heart rate is a tricky thing and there are a lot of things that factor in, much of which already mentioned in this thread -- heat/humidity is a huge factor. This is an outstanding story that talks a little about the myth of maximum HR.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/24/health/maximum-heart-rate-theory-is-challenged.html
If you're running deep into your aerobic system and now using mostly type 1 aerobic fibers, they can get exhausted in the beginning and one can see a slowing effect at the same HR in the first month, before it turns around. What can also affect it is heat. If it's getting hotter, it'll slow you down at the same HR. Another thing that can affect your speed at the same HR is a bout of abnormally high mental stress. Too much volume of running too soon can do the same thing.
It's always best to relax when training and not get too bothered, as stress isn't good for the process. If you don't see progress after a month at the same HR, then look a little deeper as to what might be the cause---and perhaps adjustments will have to be made.
Drop the heart rate training. the Vo2max is not accurate either unless you were in a lab with professionals measuring you. Unless you think their is a health issues for slowing down most likely it is your training. Interval training is the best way to get some speed back. that along with building a base and what not.
Hello everybody! I have a really nerve-racking problem, and I want to hear/write many opinions about it, so I could resolve it quickly. I'm a trail runner and cross-country skier since 2012, but before that I also used to train. Just for a quick introduction, this year my training runs were around 10-15 km, 3% elevation, 5:00-5:20 min/km pace. This year I decided to buy a heart rate monitor, and after some runs I found out that I'm running with high heart rate.For example (my watch can give me an estimated VO2max value, so I noted it down):20 km, 483 m elevation, 5:13 min/km pace, 174 bpm average and 183 bpm maximum heart rate, 52 VO2max12,5 km, 327 m elevation, 5:15 min/km pace, 172 bpm average and 181 bpm maximum heart rate, 51 VO2max I also did the maximum heart rate test, it was 195 bpm, I guess it's okay for a 20 year-old guy.I determined my heart rate zone with the Karvonen formula, and started to run in Z2. Here are my runs with heart rate control: date dist. elev. hr. pace VO2max1. 18th of April 9,51 km 87 m 145 bpm 7:14 min/km (11:38 min/mile) 492. 21th of April 9,50 km 89 m 145 bpm 7:33 min/km (12:09 min/mile) 47+ 23th of April 47 km cycling with easy pace, 149 bpm maximum, 138 bpm average HR After this I tried to run again in Z2, but after the first km I realised that it's slower than the past two trainings. So at this point I had enough, and changed the maximum training heart rate to 160 bpm, which is 4 beats below the Z3 upper limit. 3. 24th of April 9,00 km 84 m 158 bpm 6:29 min/km (10:26 min/mile) 46+ 29th of April 51 km cycling with easy pace, 149 bpm maximum, 138 bpm average HR4. 30th of April 10,20 km 135 m 158 bpm 6:34 min/km (10:34 min/mile) 455. 1st of May 5,09 km 70 m 159 bpm 6:34 min/km (10:34 min/mile) 446. 4th of May 9,50 km 85 m 160 bpm 6:42 min/km (10:46 min/mile) 437. 5th of May 11,00 km 145 m 160 bpm 6:39 min/km (10:42 min/mile) 438. 6th of May 7,2 km 85 m 160 bpm 6:58 min/km (11:12 min/mile) 42 After the 7th run I thought that my slowing-down will stop, and slowly I could improve my speed, but after the last one I felt very confused, almost panicked. Why am I getting awfully slower? And what should I do to stop this slowing-down and getting back to my original fittness? Please give me some advices, tips, because I'm really scared of losing my fitness.
sorry posting twice
To me the biggest benefit to HR training is teaching people how to actually run "easy".
My personal belief is that the most common mistake new runners make is running too hard on easy days.
I think eventually I would have figured out what "easy" was without one, but using one allowed me to learn what it was earlier.
I think that is a big part of why I've never really had a running injury in 6 years and 10,000 miles.
The RunningAHEAD mantra of "run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard" is great, but figuring out what an "easy" run is difficult for many. Kind of like an oxymoron when you are starting out, how could running be easy?
I don't do HR training per se; however, I do run with a HR monitor all the time and I do track my HR, but I take it with a grain of salt, because there are so many other factors to consider.
I've learned that the best running tool is your body.
happy runner
I think you should use whatever floats your boat. Like a previous poster has said ~ Nothing by itself is a perfect tool and you need to add some filters to get the most out of it. If you are running and it feels easy and you are above or below the zone you intend to work in, you need to think about what it means and adjust or not adjust to the data. Overall it should help you not run you easy runs too fast. It can also be a good indicator of overall workload fatigue.
I personally do not use anything by a watch (Not garmin) ~ Sometimes not even that. I love running by feel and listening to my body. There are times that I might run a few runs in a row too fast and then I get a cumulative kick in the pants to slow down. What I like about it is I am not limited by a gadget telling me what to do and I get a much better understanding of how to pace myself by feel. There are days that I will run faster, because it feels easy and good. Other days I run slow because it feels rough.
Long dead ... But my stench lingers !
Collect more data running by feel with an HRM. Like, a few seasons of data to see how your HRM relates to your training effect and racing performance (if at all). I think the HRM can be useful before that, for the beginning runner needing to be convinced to slow down. But it can't do what you want it to do for you, at this stage.
now, a power meter ...
Someday I will make the switch and I will have a power meter. Not only a beginner tool ... an intermediate tool and an expert tool.
When I actually start and become a beginner ~ I will want to know I am applying consistent power throughout the stroke.
I have one last attempt to get into great running shape and then convert to a 50 year old biking junky.