2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 271 times)

shouldbedeleted


    ...

    CommanderKeen


    Cobra Commander Keen

      Mark - Nicely done on that race, congratulations.
      1:15:anything and "only" getting 13th. Madness. That would win nearly anything around here by a good margin.
      I think you nailed it with your "low instinct for self-preservation" comment.


      Steve - Definitely a solid week.


      Flavio - Technical, slippery downhill? I wouldn't have wanted the Escalante, either (super excited for the v4 release, btw).
      How's the missus?


      Dave - Congrats on the race and AG win! Isn't that deep-marathon-block fatigue awesome?? It seems like you'r lining yourself up for a good performance in Eugene.

       

      Merkle - Bummer, man. I'm super interested in reading that RR.


      Posting my week wouldn't be worth the electrons it would inconvenience, so I won't. Another light week this week, but with more volume. Workouts next week, and lifting later today!

      5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

       

      Upcoming Races:

       

      November 2  - Crossroads Marathon

       

      Running Problem


      Problem Child

        Flavio - some people seem to fly down those steep downhill like mountain goats.  It's a skill I suspect takes a lot of practice and a low instinct for self-preservation.

         

        Yes. Also experience eating shit and thinking quickly helps. I've been told I'm a good downhill runner, I know I think quickly of where my feet are going to go, and I have zero thoughts about what I put my foot on moving. Including when I eat shit.

         

        EDIT: I had a non-runner friend tell me experience off roading/motorcycles/ATVs/4 wheelers helps in picking a line through the trails/rocks. I suppose the experience of having handlebars forcefully moved in a direction you're not anticipating provides life long feedback others don't acquire.

         

        Flavio Footwear really does make a difference. I run in the Nike Pegasus Trail for dirt/rock stuff and it really does feel like the soles have more grip than the Nike Pegasus road shoe. Also, they seem to do better protecting my feet from light kicks into rocks. I had some more "race-like" shoes for trail running previously and smashed a rock with my toes and while trying to catch myself to avoid "eating shit" all I could think was how much pain I was in then "okay that's not broken." The muddy trail run I posted April 6 definately required some ankle strength as the trail would move as you ran on the sides trying to avoid the puddles, then the mud became "soupy" and extra wet. The only way to learn how to handle this is to go out and do it. The correct shoe makes a difference. It also helps out with ankle strength and coordination. I also understand at 40 years old it isn't the same as being...say..56.

         

        My Week:

        I've been doing trails more. Since I didn't get into TCS New York I don't have any races. There is a local ultra just after Mothers Day, and trails seem new to me, and provide a new challenge. Work is causing some depression in my life any time I think what I'm doing is going to be used as proof I'm not good enough at work (leading to a termination) and trails seem to take my mind away from it sometimes. It's also just a little more appealing than roads because trails just take more energy/effort/desire and the feedback is a lot more instant (i.e. eating shit means you suck so try harder at not sucking). I had a good talk with Krash about trail running and pulled in some of what I'd been told by Keen and even SeattleMax about trails. Essentially "do what you do for road marathons, but on trails."

         

        I did two workouts. They were based on time instead of pace. First was 20 minutes tempo. Second was 10x2 minutes hard. Tempo was good because it took me out of my "casual comfort" area for the trail, and learned me some things about foot placement and my effort on the trail. I'd sandbag parts because I could, and on the tempo I wasn't allowed to.

        Second workout was good because I did the 4th and 8th interval downhill to practice running downhill fast. In my research/discussions, I'd hear a lot of people don't practice running downhill, and the purpose is to be comfortable doing it, as well as learn to do it late in a race on tired legs and practice that pounding. In came thoughts of Revel Mt. Charleston recovery (It hurt so much to walk).

         

        I've come to realize the work for road marathons is the same for trails. Longer road intervals were always capped at 5 minutes hard running so I can do the same on the trails. 40 second hard runs on the road are hard and so is running up 4% incline for 40 seconds. 4:35 hard uphill is comparable to 1,200m repeats.

         

        Tempo runs are still by effort. When I did my tempo run Thursday I realized I place my foot funny on some turns, and the tempo effort on a trail I run frequently means I have to push in spots I apparently always thought were hard. The foot placement might be hard to explain, but I will try. Look at the letter "k" and focus on the top half of the letter. The top leg going up and out to the right is the hill/surface you're running. The vertical portion is your leg. This isn't how you'd EVER run a road. It probably leads to lots of lower ankle/achilleas pain. Getting the heel higher makes the foot flatter, and when you do this you'll feel it in your calves. It was like an epiphany came to me on the run. All I can say is while running uphill I was placing my foot flat. This makes sense for road running, but if you get up on the balls of your feet (your calves will start to burn after a while) you're actually making your foot more naturally flat (at least in my brain). This helps propel you UP the trail, instead of pushing OUT from the trail. I saw a video describing it when relating to going uphill and stepping on larger flat rocks. Also, EFFORT makes a big difference. Knowing what a 6/10 feels like is important. Everyone here knows not to go out too fast on race day, and it applies to trails. Putting in an 8 effort when you should put in a 6 really helps. I've been humbled on the trails and learned checking my ego/pride at the door and knowing "what the purpose of the workout" is really makes a difference.

         

         

        Also, getting all the way up the hill on Monday, and again Friday to prove it wasn't just possible on a full rested body was awesome. It caused a lot of mental happiness for a moment as I'd set a goal a long time ago and achieved it MUCH faster than I expected to. All because I just kept trying things I could think of with none of them being (reviewed by my office before being implemented) not good enough.

         

        I did stars because it counts as vertical gain. Total vertical gain for running was just over 7,800. Including stairs and walking made it just shy of 9,700. My "goal" was to be at 10k, and I could have earned it with a second trail run in my area. I skipped it to run with friends on my birthday.

        Weekly for period: From: 01/04/2024 To 07/04/2024

        <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
        in m
        01/04 Morning Workout 0.00 0.00 00:01:08 00:00 00:00 0
        01/04 Morning Workout 0.00 0.00 00:14:00 00:00 00:00 0
        01/04 That time I didn’t have to walk. 6.76 10.87 01:04:38 09:34 05:57 362
        01/04 Afternoon Workout 0.00 0.00 00:14:23 00:00 00:00 0
        01/04 Evening Walk 0.70 1.13 00:20:43 29:36 18:20 6
        02/04 Morning Walk 0.98 1.58 00:23:57 24:26 15:09 9
        02/04 Morning Workout 0.00 0.00 00:01:11 00:00 00:00 0
        02/04 That time I made up TempoDURRRR TWO’s Day 6.45 10.38 00:55:44 08:38 05:22 272
        03/04 That time it was all the effort without any of the joy. 6.82 10.98 01:03:37 09:20 05:48 380
        03/04 Afternoon Workout 0.00 0.00 00:14:59 00:00 00:00 0
        03/04 Afternoon Walk 0.82 1.32 00:18:24 22:26 13:56 39
        04/04 35 flights 0.00 0.00 00:15:51 00:00 00:00 0
        04/04 That time RPE is TRT for TSS. 6.68 10.75 01:00:28 09:03 05:37 404
        05/04 That time ‘Imma have the best F*kn’ time of my life’ 6.78 10.91 01:04:55 09:34 05:57 407
        05/04 Afternoon Workout 0.00 0.00 00:12:41 00:00 00:00 0
        06/04 That time it is more fun when it isn’t work. 11.27 18.13 01:49:49 09:45 06:03 382
        07/04 That time I’m not sure how I use to do this. 7.92 12.75 01:06:09 08:21 05:11 101
        07/04 That time it would be a great ABV. 6.58 10.59 00:56:12 08:32 05:18 77

        Totals: Time: 11:18:49 - 🦅Imperial: 61.77 mi - Metric: 99.39 km

        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

        VDOT 53.37 

        5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

        mt79


          I used to run downhill very fast about age 18-20 when I trained on mountain trails.  Riding the line of being too out of control to avoid dangerous obstacles.  It was definitely not safe, and I would never do that now.   I’m too heavy and too weak to try it.  If I had been racing, I would have taken even more risks.  I used to run straight down hills jumping from one switchback to another, passing runners, bikers hikers etc.  It is definitely not relaxing and you can’t afford to lose your concentration at all.  

          I think you are overthinking the mechanics, Flavio.  I never gave it a thought, I just did it.  I was light on my feet and I had strong legs and a lot of speed.  I would guess that I could easily average sub 4:30 pace on a good descent over a couple miles on a hard run.   There was a run I really enjoyed that was about 10 miles.  Several miles ascending with no break, a fast downhill over like 1.5 miles, then run back around the base of the hill.  The climb started like 1/4 mile from the parking lot.  So I would start out easy, which back then was like sub 7 pace up the hill, probably sub-5 min pace down the hill, and then like 6ish back to my car.  There were stream crossings, fallen logs etc.  The whole thing was shaded and just beautiful.  I used to race the mountain bikers and try to hold them off between obstacles.  Anyway, once I ran it enough I knew that descent well enough to just crush it if I was in the mood.  

          On regular, safe, wide and steep downhills back then like toward the end of a race, I just opened up my stride and turned over my legs as fast as I could.  You can easily run in the 3Tight lippedx mile pace when you get going.  I always assumed that’s how everyone else runs them too.  Maybe other people were afraid of falling?

           

          I don’t think people over like 40 can race downhill trails. You are going to sprain an ankle or knee or worse take a serious fall.  Looking back, I’m glad I never fell when I was on the fastest sections approaching 20 miles per hour.  Landing on stumps, and sharp fallen branches would have been bad.  I actually timed an unofficial downhill mountain bike race on that 10 miler descent, and some of the riders went to the hospital and many others got torn to pieces.  The worst was a guy that compound broke his arm trying to jump a creek at the bottom and ate the rocks.  Nearly everyone in this forum is too old now, and probably too smart to try that stuff anymore.

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            Something I thought of while running downhill is to be mindful of your feet inside your shoe. If you sit back and slow yourself down on steep downhills your feet will slide forward in your shoes. When this happens every step you're taking jams your toes into your shoes. Not enough to make it hurt, but enough that over time on a longer race you might cause some discomfort/pain. It isn't something I'd expect to happen on a road run simply because the downhills people run on roads they lean forward. I found I can somhow scoot my foot back a little bit on a shorter run, and for something like JFK 50 miler it might cause some later discomfort, or lost toenails.

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 53.37 

            5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

            Marby


            Ash

              Flavio – Massive congratulations on the sub 3, I totally get the emotion of it for you and had feels myself reading your account!

               

              Krash – Epic, epic race! Outstanding that your daughter crewed, you must have done a lot right as a parent.

               

              I’ve been slack at posting as I’m just base training and getting in shape for pacing. ‘Real’ marathon training won’t start until late May. A fair bit of my running recently has been practising for 3 hour 50 pacing.  The pacing course has been interesting, a lot of obvious stuff but I have learnt a watch setup that I’ll use for pacing and racing. I’ve got Peter’s (Hi Vis) Pacer installed on my Garmin, the lap button can be used at on course markers to correct GPS drift and I have that displaying as a single data field showing time ahead/behind goal. I wondered what others do?

               

              I managed to get down to the local parkrun on Saturday. I would have been happy with anything under 20:30 and was hoping it would be closer to 20.  Very early I found myself feeling good at around 20 min pace and noticed there was a guy pacing a girl to a sub 20, I settled in just behind them. At the 3k mark they were 5-10m in front and another group of 6 went past and joined them.  Amazingly, I then had a pack to try hang on.  I didn’t quite have it in me, finished with 20:05 but very happy with that.  The last one was 22:02 about 10 weeks ago.

               

              Date

              Name

              mi

              km

              Duration

              Avg/mi

              Avg/km

              Elevation ft

              4/01/2024

              Morning Run

              4.42

              7.11

              0:42:00

              9:30

              5:54

              331

              4/02/2024

              Evening Run

              8.71

              14.02

              1:16:15

              8:45

              5:26

              154

              4/03/2024

              Morning Run

              4.39

              7.07

              0:38:22

              8:44

              5:26

              233

              4/03/2024

              Evening Run

              0.51

              0.82

              0:04:22

              8:34

              5:20

              13

              4/03/2024

              Evening Run

              3.12

              5.03

              0:27:17

              8:45

              5:25

              20

              4/04/2024

              Morning Run

              8

              12.88

              1:10:25

              8:48

              5:28

              269

              4/06/2024

              Warm

              3.06

              4.93

              0:26:16

              8:35

              5:20

              102

              4/06/2024

              parkrun #24

              3.18

              5.11

              0:20:05

              6:19

              3:56

              33

              4/06/2024

              Cool

              2.97

              4.78

              0:26:03

              8:46

              5:27

              98

              4/07/2024

              Morning Run

              0.61

              0.98

              0:06:15

              10:15

              6:23

              0

              4/07/2024

              Morning Run

              18.88

              30.38

              2:44:06

              8:42

              5:24

              712

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

               

              Week

              58

              93

              8:21:26

               

               

              1965

              Next: Ballarat, April 28, Pacing 3:50

              Best: 5k 19:46 (Parkrun, 2016), 10k 40:37 (Track, 2022), Half 1:26:41 (2016), Full 3:00:23 (2021)

              CommanderKeen


              Cobra Commander Keen

                Marby - Nice week.
                I've used the "Race Screen" CIQ app for several years now, which does the same drift correction for pace/distance. It also gives your estimated finish time based on either current or average pace (you choose which).

                5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                 

                Upcoming Races:

                 

                November 2  - Crossroads Marathon

                 

                Marby


                Ash

                  Keen - Race Screen is the one recommended by the coaches. I found it a bit busy. The Hi Vis version of Peter's lets me put add a single field to a regular screen (4 fields: Ahead/Behind, Lap Pace, Current Pace, Elapsed Time).

                  Local podcasts: Inside Running Podcast (running), The Imperfects (mental health).

                  Next: Ballarat, April 28, Pacing 3:50

                  Best: 5k 19:46 (Parkrun, 2016), 10k 40:37 (Track, 2022), Half 1:26:41 (2016), Full 3:00:23 (2021)


                  Pain is my friend

                    Mark- Damn fast as always. Amazing job.

                     

                    RP- Keep up the great work. 9k vert a week is a lot for right now. Since our race isn't till July. It is still a great goal. If you don't get, don't beat yourself up. I got in 9k vert last week but I got in 4 trail days. Vert boot camp I call it. Training down hill is great. I pound my quads from time to time. I can't run the next day but it will help in the long run. I find myself on my toes going up hill and down. Trail running is always a work in progress. Finding out what works and doesn't for you. Trail running is a eating and drinking competition. If you can eat and drink lots you win. Some look at calories and others at Carbs. I try to eat and drink on training runs, the same as races.

                     

                    My friends tell people to listen to what I say when it comes to trail running, but then take it down a notch. The training I do works for me. Maybe not for everyone. You are doing great with your training. Don't push too hard too soon. Burn out happens on trail too.

                     

                    My week: This is my first full week back to running. I am still keeping my uphill treadmill run alive. I had a few days off this week for the kids spring break. Got in as much trail running as I could and sitll take it easy.

                    M:7.5 miles 1100 vert. Most of the trail was free of snow. The upper 2 miles were completly covered.

                    T: 3 easy outside. Then 3 miles at 3% and then 1 mile at 5%. Ran at a 9:05 pace on the TM.

                    W:7 easy miles street mapping. Ran my 1000th mile for the year.

                    T: 7.1 miles on trail. 4.3 miles to the peak with 3200 ft vert. Only the first 1,5 was free of snow. Most of the snow was hard and I could power hike up on top of it.

                    F:9 miles of fun trail. 1827 ft vert.

                    S: 13 miles trail 2100 ft vert. All runable. The last few miles were downhill. Dropped to a 6 min mile the last half mile.

                     

                    Quads are more sore from this week than any of my hard weeks for my last race. Different type of running.

                    ATY 24   141.445 2019 1st

                    Bear 100 22:08 2021 

                    Jackpot 100 Feb 14:59 - 5th

                     

                    Pulse endurance 48 hr 175.3 miles

                    Bonnevile Backyard ultra 

                    Ute 100 Aug

                    24 hour loop race?

                     

                    shouldbedeleted


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                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        Belatedly checking in, after being swamped the past week or so.

                         

                        45 miles running, 1000 yards swimming, and 90 minutes pool-running.

                        M: 90 minutes pool-running and streaming yoga.
                        T: 10 miles with some random strides. Sports massage in evening.
                        W: 10 miles, including a track workout of 2K, 3x1200, 2x200 in 9:24, 5:23, 5:18, 5:16, 52, and 52 (2:2x-2:3x recovery between each).
                        Th: 6.5 miles very easy (10:10) on trails plus some leg strengthwork; streaming Pilates in evening.
                        F: Upper body weights/core and 9 miles very easy (9:15) plus drills and strides.
                        Sa: 9.5 miles including a 6400m track tempo in 28:20 (7:16/7:07/7:04/6:54) followed by leg strengthwork.
                        Su: 1000 yards swimming.

                         

                        I bailed on the Tuesday workout because I was having a bad day, and my legs were just too stiff to move fast.  A sports massage that night helped stuff calm down a lot, and a second try on Wednesday morning went much better despite having been run in a gale.

                        Because I ran the Tuesday track workout on Wednesday, I pushed the Friday tempo workout back to Saturday, which ended up being a ridiculously windy day.  My tempo was a slightly slower than I would have liked, but I'm fairly certain that the wind was costing me at least a second or two each lap.

                         

                        I spent a lot of time on my feet on Sunday cheering at the Cherry Blossom 10 Miler, so I skipped running that day and swam instead.  Managed to do 2x50 yards in 46 and 45 seconds, so I was excited about that (not fast for a real swimmer; decently fast for me).

                        I fly out to Boston on Friday morning, with my para-athlete classification appointment scheduled for Saturday afternoon.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                          A few quick shoutouts:

                           

                          Marky_Mark - congrats on a great race under conditions that 2019 Mark did not need to deal with.

                           

                          Merkle- sorry about the race, but you have come so far in a year!  Progress is a sinewave, and you're at a low point in the curve right now.

                           

                           

                          Flavio - I'm glad that the PR caught your wife's ankle issue and fixed it.  Scary that it was missed before.

                           

                          Downhill running - as someone who used to be an excellent downhill runner and is now an awful downhill runner trying to remember how to do it:

                          - staying relaxed and fluid is key,  In particular, your knees need to be soft and flexed, and your ankles and hips need to be mobile.

                          - you need to be able to extend your stride behind you and to turn your legs over quickly to take full advantage of a downhill

                          - core strength, especially transvers abdominus, is key.

                          - two tricks are a) think about kicking your heels up behind you as you run downhill (like butt kicks) and b) try to have your foot hit the ground at the same angle it would if the ground was straight.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          Marky_Mark_17


                             

                            Downhill running - as someone who used to be an excellent downhill runner and is now an awful downhill runner trying to remember how to do it:

                            - staying relaxed and fluid is key,  In particular, your knees need to be soft and flexed, and your ankles and hips need to be mobile.

                            - you need to be able to extend your stride behind you and to turn your legs over quickly to take full advantage of a downhill

                            - core strength, especially transvers abdominus, is key.

                            - two tricks are a) think about kicking your heels up behind you as you run downhill (like butt kicks) and b) try to have your foot hit the ground at the same angle it would if the ground was straight.

                             

                            The cadence point is a really important one. You've got to be able to get the leg turnover going to take full advantage.

                             

                            Other than that, I have noticed a lot of snowboarding principles apply remarkably well to downhill running as well.  As well as keeping your legs relaxed and knees soft, you want to be looking down the hill and keeping your posture aligned.  I always think about this as leaning into the downhill as the natural tendency is to lean back, although the reality is that you are just trying to line your posture up with the slope of the hill. "Don't break at the waist" is a classic snowboarding phrase that always comes to mind lol.

                            3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                            10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                            * Net downhill course

                            Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                            Up next: Still working on that...

                            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                            shouldbedeleted


                              ....

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                ALL

                                 

                                 

                                I just sent my boss my two week notice.

                                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                                VDOT 53.37 

                                5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22