2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 271 times)

Marky_Mark_17


    All the best wcrunner!!

     

    Early dump of the weekly for me. Day off on Sunday since it's Mothers Day and probably advisable to look after the kids and let my wife sleep in rather than disappearing for a long run.

     

    It was a post-race week but kind of a momentous one as I bid farewell to my coach of 8.5 years.  She was very good about it and totally understood where things are at.  I still think it's crazy that when I first met her, my goal was to run a sub-1:24 half in the next year with a long-term goal of sub-1:20 (which I did in less than a year).  If you had told me even half the stuff I'd achieve while she was coaching me, I would never have believed it.  But the truth is that I am in a different place with running now.  Of course I still want to be competitive and push myself, but there's no real lure of PBs any more and the real thrill just comes from running good races, and exploring new events.

     

    So that leaves me with a bit of time to think now about what comes next - other than probably National Road Relays at the end of September, there's nothing in the calendar until the HM series rolls around again from early October.  Even that may take on a lesser focus as I'd quite like to try some more 5k / shorter events and possibly doing some track events next summer might be back on the radar.

     

    And... that's not a bad thing. This morning I went out with no specific plan, and decided to go and run a bunch of hills, just because.  I think it'll be nice to just run for a bit.

     

    Weekly for period: From: 06/05/2024 To 12/05/2024

    <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
    Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
    in m
    06/05 That run where the winter training starts here 3.17 5.10 00:23:41 07:28 04:39 3
    07/05 That run where we need more winter road races 8.06 12.96 00:53:32 06:39 04:08 19
    08/05 That run where that southerly had a few teeth 8.71 14.02 00:56:57 06:32 04:04 25
    09/05 That run where I felt obligated to include a hill 9.17 14.76 01:04:16 07:01 04:21 95
    10/05 That run where winter got here early 9.19 14.78 01:04:33 07:01 04:22 173
    11/05 That run with some hills and some more hills 11.50 18.51 01:20:59 07:03 04:23 266

    Totals: Time: 05:43:58 - 🦅Imperial: 49.80 mi - Metric: 80.13 km

    3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

    10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

    * Net downhill course

    Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

    Up next: Still working on that...

    "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      WCRunner - good luck!

       

      Marky_Mark - why the coaching change?  (if you are comfortable discussing here - I understand that you may not)

       

      RP - how did the interview go? (again, if you are comfortable discussing here)

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      Marky_Mark_17


        Marky_Mark - why the coaching change?  (if you are comfortable discussing here - I understand that you may not)

         

        Fair question, and there were a few factors. I think I'm experienced enough and know my body well enough now to plan my own training - and maybe it'll actually be good for me.  For the most part my coach has taken my overall guidance around workload (i.e. runs per week / time / distance) and structured a program around that anyways so it's not like the macro piece changes, I just need to be the one that figures out the details - and I'm kind of looking forward to the challenge of that.  For the most part I'm sticking to event distances where I'm pretty experienced too, plus the odd crazy trail event just for the adventure of it.  It's pretty different to a few years ago when I was inexperienced and attempting distances I really wasn't that familiar with (especially the marathon).

         

        My coach has been awesome and in no way is it a reflection on her - it was just time for me to do my own thing (after 8.5 years!).

        3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

        10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

        * Net downhill course

        Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

        Up next: Still working on that...

        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

        mmerkle


          Let's fight.

           

          Several people I know who are slower than me in shorter events but faster than me in the marathon keep doing these "crazy" 20-23 mile long runs around or under 7 minute mile pace average. What's up? Maybe my day 1 argument on this thread needs to come back. I'm fed up with the marathon once again and maybe it really IS the case that you need to blast some very long long runs near or at marathon pace.

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

            mmerkle - For this cycle my coach has brought in a lot more "steady" type long runs which are generally in zone 3, albeit slightly slower than marathon pace.  These are the runs that are generally accepted to be not recommended (the "dead" zone) but the thinking is that I haven't done a lot of them in previous cycles, and there's something about that zone that I have trouble with.  It remains to be seen how it works.

             

            I think for you, blasting long runs at speed is unlikely to help.  I'd almost go the other way and say do more mileage at slower speeds - get yourself consistently around Keen's mileage.  I'd also say that you're early in your marathon career (like me) and the more you do the better you'll get.  You've definitely got the talent to take some big chunks off that PR.

             

            Mark - Sounds like a fun few months in front of you.  Your coach has taken you to great places but I agree, there's no reason why you can't coach yourself now especially with your outlook on doing events more for fun.  I don't think your PR days are behind you though, depending on what you want in the future.

             

            Good luck wc!  Also, Fishy may need a prod about keeping the races up to date...

             

            My week - This week had more of a focus on the steady runs I mentioned above.  Yesterday went really well, with 2 hours in the danger/cramp zone, just slightly slower than all 3 marathons up until the cramp hit.  I covered about 25km with no issues and feeling really comfortable.  I did a sweat test too and was surprised I only lost 2.6kg, albeit in 6 degrees celsius (43F).  The Precision Hydration calculator says I only need 300ml per hour based on that, and race day is likely to be colder.  I'll probably keep it at around 500-600ml of Precision 1500 drink.  The coming week looks like similar mileage but cutting back the long run and more of a speed focus.

             

            Weekly for period: From: 06/05/2024 To 12/05/2024

            <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
            in m
            06/05 Warm up 0.34 0.54 00:03:10 09:19 05:52 0
            06/05 Easy Monday 8.99 14.47 01:15:40 08:25 05:14 27
            08/05 Warm up 0.35 0.56 00:03:11 09:06 05:41 0
            08/05 Steady med long 11.40 18.34 01:30:36 07:57 04:56 23
            09/05 Warm up 0.34 0.54 00:03:06 09:07 05:44 0
            09/05 Easy hour 7.52 12.09 01:04:51 08:37 05:22 27
            10/05 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:11 09:22 05:47 0
            10/05 Friday Strides - 6 x 15 seconds 6.48 10.43 00:54:05 08:21 05:11 24
            11/05 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:20 09:48 06:04 1
            11/05 2 hours in the zone (3) 20.49 32.96 02:40:19 07:49 04:52 38
            12/05 Warm up 0.33 0.54 00:03:10 09:36 05:52 0
            12/05 Recovery 6.44 10.36 01:00:11 09:21 05:49 22

            Totals: Time: 08:44:50 - 🦅Imperial: 63.35 mi - Metric: 101.92 km

            5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:29:54 6/24

             

            2024 Races:

            Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

            Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

            Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

            Wellington Marathon June 23, 2024 3:29:54

            Hagley Park Run July 20, 2024

            Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

            Timaru Ten October 26, 2024

            shouldbedeleted


              ....

              wcrunner2


              Are we there, yet?

                It was a strange race.  I was fine through 20K, which is about all my training could support, then everything fell apart and most of the rest of the race was talking myself into not quitting. I ran 9:11:09, more than an hour slower than I had hoped to run. On the bright side, a definite oddity and made me glad I had persevered, was finishing second male and getting a nice plaque.  Aside from the winner who set a new course record of 3:27:19 (note the huge gap between him and me), all the other men were geezers like me (69 and older) and they all ran slower.

                 2024 Races:

                      03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                      05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                      06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
                      10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour

                 

                 

                     

                SteveChCh


                Hot Weather Complainer

                  wcrunner - 9 hours on your feet!  Wow.  Great effort getting it done.

                   

                  Flavio - Lots of speed!  When is the 800?

                   

                  Also, trolling is great fun!  Reddit is the ultimate place to wind people up, sometimes you can get people to write pages with references with just a one liner.

                  5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:29:54 6/24

                   

                  2024 Races:

                  Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                  Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

                  Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

                  Wellington Marathon June 23, 2024 3:29:54

                  Hagley Park Run July 20, 2024

                  Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                  Timaru Ten October 26, 2024

                  Marky_Mark_17


                     

                    Mark - Sounds like a fun few months in front of you.  Your coach has taken you to great places but I agree, there's no reason why you can't coach yourself now especially with your outlook on doing events more for fun.  I don't think your PR days are behind you though, depending on what you want in the future.

                     

                    I guess it's more that I'm just not really chasing them specifically.  If I end up hitting one, great.  But it's not the motivator in the same way it was a few years ago.

                     

                    Anyways awesome job on that LR.  The dead zone gets bagged a lot but I've always enjoyed a good Z3 run.

                    3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                    10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                    * Net downhill course

                    Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                    Up next: Still working on that...

                    "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                    mmerkle


                      Steve Interesting. Obviously keep us posted on how that goes.

                       

                      wcrunner Nice job. That's a mighty long day. How's the recovery going?

                       

                      Mark Sometimes I think it's good to have some time to just run and not worry about training structure and races. To just enjoy the freedom of being out on a run.

                       

                      flavio Looks like the wheels are developing.

                       

                      darkwave I forgot to mention that I hopped in the 5k race you sent the link to. I registered so fast it slipped my mind lol. It is pretty much perfect. Two weeks from the 2 mile, on the very track where I do all my workouts. Thanks for recommending a good race for like the 15th time.

                       

                      The Week

                       

                       

                      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                      in ft
                      05/06 Warm Up 2.02 3.25 00:17:30 08:40 05:23 92
                      05/06 4 X 1 mile Tempo with 200 Jog Recovery 4.36 7.02 00:27:21 06:16 03:54 0
                      05/06 6 X 200 with 200 jog recoveries 1.50 2.41 00:10:49 07:13 04:29 0
                      05/06 Cool Down 1.52 2.45 00:12:29 08:13 05:06 7
                      05/07 Lunch Run 10.54 16.96 01:24:34 08:01 04:59 413
                      05/08 Successful rematch with a technical trail 10.04 16.16 01:38:40 09:50 06:06 1368
                      05/09 Warm Up 2.03 3.26 00:16:32 08:09 05:04 98
                      05/09 4 X 200, 6 X 400, 4 X 200 4.85 7.80 00:33:15 06:51 04:16 0
                      05/09 Cool Down 1.53 2.47 00:12:56 08:27 05:14 26
                      05/10 Easy treadmill day 9.00 14.48 01:12:26 08:03 05:00 0
                      05/10 1k easy, 1k hard 1.24 2.00 00:08:10 06:35 04:05 0
                      05/11 That run where hill climbing felt noticeably less difficult 10.54 16.97 01:26:49 08:14 05:07 1411
                      05/12 Shorty Long 13.10 21.08 01:41:02 07:43 04:48 669

                      Totals: Time: 09:42:33 - 🦅Imperial: 72.28 mi - Metric: 116.30 km

                       

                      Note: The 1k easy 1k hard was on the rowing machine.

                       

                      Hill climbing is starting to feel better. I still need some time to get used to speed again. I'm running a rust buster track 5k on the 17th. My expectations are not very high. I seeded myself at 17:30.

                       

                       

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        WCRunner - congratulations - that second place indicates just how tough the race was.

                         

                        MMerkle:

                         

                        "Several people I know who are slower than me in shorter events but faster than me in the marathon keep doing these "crazy" 20-23 mile long runs around or under 7 minute mile pace average. What's up? Maybe my day 1 argument on this thread needs to come back. I'm fed up with the marathon once again and maybe it really IS the case that you need to blast some very long long runs near or at marathon pace."

                         

                        One thing to consider - you don't know if those fast long runs are the cause of their marathon performances or if those fast long runs are what limits those runners from running faster at shorter distances.

                         

                        Also, it can be hard to tell if a) someone is truly running 40km run at 90% of marathon pace, or b) running 40km at something faster than 90% of their marathon pace, which then adds enough fatigue that their marathon pace on race day is slowed to the point where that "90% of marathon pace" ends up being exactly that.

                         

                        I also think that we need to be cautious about taking TOO much from the training of those who are trying to run as fast as they can for ~2 hours and applying it on a proportional basis to the training of those who are trying to run as fast as they can for 2:30-3 hours.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                          40 miles running; 15 "miles" pool-running.
                          M: 9 "miles' of pool-running.
                          T: 9 miles, including a track workout of 2x800, 1600, 800, 2x200 in 3:24, 3:24, 6:48, 3:18, 48, and 48. Recoveries of 2:4x-2:5x after the 800s and 5:30 after the 1600; full recovery for the 200s. Followed with leg strengthwork.
                          W: 9 miles very easy (9:22) and upper body weights/core.
                          Th: 6 miles very easy on trails (10:13) and streaming pilates.
                          F: 9 miles on the track including a 6400m tempo in 28:21 (7:16/7:10/7:01/6:54) followed by leg strengthwork.
                          Sa: 7 miles very easy (9:20) plus drills/strides, followed by streaming pilates.
                          Su: 6 "miles" pool-running.

                           

                          Not too much of note here - just track workouts on Tuesday and Friday. I turned 50 this week, so I intentionally kept the weekend light on training so I could focus more on social stuff.

                           

                          Yay new age group.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          Running Problem


                          Problem Child

                            Let's fight.

                             

                            Several people I know who are slower than me in shorter events but faster than me in the marathon keep doing these "crazy" 20-23 mile long runs around or under 7 minute mile pace average. What's up? Maybe my day 1 argument on this thread needs to come back. I'm fed up with the marathon once again and maybe it really IS the case that you need to blast some very long long runs near or at marathon pace.

                             

                            Speculating, but perhaps they’re specializing.  Endurance vs speed. I personally don’t want to run a 20 miler ever at any point in training. Even if it was a 3 E + 14GMP+ 3E. I might as well race a half marathon at that point and get new training paces instead of running a hard workout on a weekend. 
                            I also don’t think my 5k represented my marathon times simply because I hadn’t spent much time focusing on 5k speed.

                            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                            VDOT 53.37 

                            5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                            wcrunner2


                            Are we there, yet?

                              Some personal observations on long runs:
                              Keeping them in zone 2 limits the benefits you can get from them. Zone 3 is still aerobic and for longer races like the marathon, that's also going to be closer to race pace. Besides running at different paces or efforts like zone 3, adds variety and avoid getting stuck in a rut that might be hard to break out of because it's habit.  Long runs can also be combined with other purposes besides developing endurance.  Adding a progression or fast finish to a long run not only adds some LT or VO2Mx work, but mimics a race finish.  Mentally having done that in training makes it easier in a race to shift gears.

                               

                              In general I think the idea of dead zones that you should avoid between those geared to specific purposes undermines the range or training paces available and narrows or restricts the vision of what a training run can do.

                               2024 Races:

                                    03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                                    05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                                    06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
                                    10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour

                               

                               

                                   

                              wcrunner2


                              Are we there, yet?

                                Really too soon to tell about recovery.  If I sit too long It's hard to walk when I get up.  I also developed a mild pain in my right hip, so I'll have to be careful that it isn't or doesn't become a real injury.

                                 2024 Races:

                                      03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                                      05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                                      06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
                                      10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour