2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 271 times)

Marky_Mark_17


    mmerkle - I'm interested in the debate here as well. If I attempted a LR with that much MP, I would basically be running my race in training.  The most I ever hit in marathon training was around a 22 miler, with maybe half that at goal MP.  Even then, I felt like I did a better job in that run, than I did in the actual race, in both cases.  If I was to ever run another marathon, I would include goal MP in some long runs, but probably not that much.  Most likely I'd run them progressively, aiming to hit the last 10k at around MP.

     

    Conversely, I've seen runners knock out long runs with 16-20 miles + at goal MP.  Sometimes they burned out on race day, sometimes they kicked ass.  One guy I know actually burned himself out doing that 2-3 years ago and had a bad race, followed by a year off with achilles issues, then followed the same strategy and ran 2:38 for a big PB a few weeks ago.

     

    Anyways enjoy the 5k.  Finding a good pack can really help in those track races.

     

    Darkwave - heh that's a big age group shift! I'm kinda looking forward to that one myself, because for some of the Masters age categories here, it's split 35-49 then 50+.  Others work in 5 years intervals.

     

    wcrunner- irrespective of results, that is an insane amount of time to be spending on your feet. Well done.

    3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

    10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

    * Net downhill course

    Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

    Up next: Still working on that...

    "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

    wcrunner2


    Are we there, yet?

      Here's the long version of my D3 50K race report:

      I should have seen this coming with all the issues I'd been having with recovery in training. I joke about being under trained for these races, but this was taking that to an extreme. In March I ran the Livingston Ultra 6-Hour and was generally pleased with the results and hoped that was an indication that I was on track with my training in preparation for my more important races. Following that race I fell into a ccyle of running some good workouts, then needing extra time for recovery. As a result I wasn't able to increase my mileage and my long runs were barely over two hours. I think this was a deciding factor in how the race developed.

       

      Approaching race day I was stalking the weather. D3 seems to have either torrential rain or hot temperatures and sun. This year it looked like it might be near ideal with temperature at the start of 52F/11C and a high of 64F/18C with at least some cloud cover. My taper, however, was not going well. Leading up to the race I was not running relaxed and still did not feel fully recovered from my last hard run. As a result I tried something different for my and took a full rest day the day before, rather than my usual warm up jog with a couple strides. Just in case there was a last minute change in the weather, I packed everything I thought I could possibly need from extra shirts, shorts, and socks, to rain jacket and a long sleeve fleece shirt. That all went in my D3 gym bag. Then I packed my knapsack with Gatorade and granola bars just in case I needed to supplement the aid station offerings. I thought I had everything I would need, then halfway to the race Saturday morning I realized I'd forgotten my signature Tilley hat. It was too late to turn around and get it, but it didn't look like I would need it anyway with no rain in the forecast and it wasn't supposed to be sunny. That brings me to the start at 9:00 AM, two hours after the 24-Hour runners began.

       

      The race amazingly did start off well. The first two laps were a little fast before I settled into running 3:30-3:35 per lap. Add in the time I needed to grab something to eat or drink and I reached 10K in 1:29:58, about a 14:29 pace. I did slow down slightly for the next 10K, but it was also getting warmer and as I approached 20K my legs were feeling the effort. I decided that at 20K I needed to shift to walking exclusively, at least until I felt I could kick it in to the finish. The second 10K was 1:31:25, a 14:43 pace so there was a definite slowing. The sun was also breaking through now and then, enough that I got sunburned a little on my arms and neck. This is when I really missed my hat. Fortunately Bill Schultz, the race director found one and offered it to me. I was really grateful as it made more of a difference than I expected. I had turned down an earlier offer of a hat from another runner, former RD Josh Irvan.

       

      This is when the race started downhill. Much to my chagrin I wasn't walking nearly as fast as I had anticipated and my legs were feeling more and more fatigued. By 16 miles I needed a break and took a 7 minute rest. It wouldn't be my last or my shortest. At this point I actually began considering whether I should call it a day and leave for the comfort of home. It was apparent that 8 hours was unattainable. Obviously I didn't, but neither was it the last time that thought crossed my mind. Three miles later with the day getting hotter, I took another long break; this one was 14 minutes. Now I was running some quick figures and wondering if I even had the energy and motivation to continue an attempt at setting the PA resident single age 77 record. That was, and still is, 8:41:10, held by Al Emma, who happened to be in the race again this year. From this point on it seemed to be walk 4-6 laps, take a short break, and repeat, all the while wondering why I didn't stop. Of course by this time I was also a lot closer to the finish, and stopping no longer made any sense. I even tried to incorporate some short 30 second runs, but after a few laps realized my legs might not hold up to the finish if I continued to push it like that. Now even finishing under 9 hours was no longer in sight. My only incentive, I thought, was to avoid a DNS. I was taking another break, which turned out to be my last, with 13 laps left, when Mike Melton, the timer stopped to inform me that I was in second place. Somewhat in disbelief, I immediately pushed myself off my chair to begin my final push to the finish. Mike hadn't said how much of a lead I had, so I did my best to see that I wasn't passed by any of the other geezers in the race. (The three left to battle me for second place were ages 69, 74, and 83.) I tried to get a good glance at the monitor, but was never able to see how much of a cushion I had. I'm counting down in my head now, reaching first single digits to go, then down to my last mile, then a verbal check with Mike to be sure I was starting my final lap. I couldn't even bring myself to run across the finish.

       

      There's not much of a denouement to wrap up the day. Mike removed the timing chip from my shoe. I couldn't have bent down to cut if off if I tried. Then he brought out my coffee mug as a finisher and this huge plaque for runner-up in the 50K. I still have a hard time believing that happened. Enough time had elapsed from when the winner finished to when I did, that he could have run another 50K with plenty of time to spare. The gap was 5:43:50. I had a lead of 37:56 over third place.

       

      These results are prompting me to rethink my goals for 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour. That's five weeks away, so I have some time to prepare. Part of that preparation will be the Bubbletown What the Duck 12-Hour which will be primarily a social run for me, but also an opportunity for a final good long run before the Dome. The first few days of recovery have gone well, so I still have some hope for a good distance there. I will also be rethinking my race strategy, particularly the duration of my walk breaks, to see if I can extent the time I can run, then work on being able to walk at a faster pace.

       2024 Races:

            03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

            05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
            06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
            10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour

       

       

           

        I am not experienced enough to chime in on the mmerkle debate - but those long runs at MP, that goes against most training plans I have seen - the max by Jack Daniels around 12miles with a 3&2 at easy pace before and after.

         

        Mark is not a good reference, as he yet has to nail the marathon distance imo (no pressure).

         

        Flavio & Mikkey: I would recommend the Greek islands in September (Crete, Mikonos, Paros, Santorini - or even some island hoping) or Nice/Cannes - why? because the water isn't as freezing cold as in Portugal. If you want to have a swim. France has the benefit of excellent food, and isn't as busy in September anymore. Greece is cheaper, but the food is a bit heavier. You can also fly out to Athens and then take a fary to one of the many islands - i.e. combine the holiday a bit with bigger city and then relaxing island. I love Greece. Have been to Portugal/Spain many times, but I am a foodie (that's why I jogg) so Cote d'Azur > Greece > Portugal > Italy/Spain

        HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)

         

        2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!

        Marky_Mark_17


           

          Mark is not a good reference, as he yet has to nail the marathon distance imo (no pressure).

           

           

          Haha no pressure at all as I'm pretty unlikely to run another one.

           

          One point Steve Magness has made at times, which made me think, is that we often falsely conflate distance with challenge.  Racing that 5k really reminded me of that - I gotta say racing that distance really well will be a real challenge.  My execution at that last event was maybe a 6/10 at best (too fast early, too slow through km's 3 and 4 when I needed to really double down).  A marathon gets tough towards the end when you're totally running on fumes, no doubt about that.  But a 5k, you've got to tread a very fine line between "really hard" and "too hard".  You can't let up, but if you overcook it, you'll pay.  He went so far as to say that while both events have their unique challenges, the 5k was actually tougher to coach than the marathon.  I'm no expert on the mile but I'm guessing that is also a very tough event to really execute well.

          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

          * Net downhill course

          Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

          Up next: Still working on that...

          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

          shouldbedeleted


            ....

            JMac11


            RIP Milkman

               

               

              One thing to consider - you don't know if those fast long runs are the cause of their marathon performances or if those fast long runs are what limits those runners from running faster at shorter distances.

               

              Also, it can be hard to tell if a) someone is truly running 40km run at 90% of marathon pace, or b) running 40km at something faster than 90% of their marathon pace, which then adds enough fatigue that their marathon pace on race day is slowed to the point where that "90% of marathon pace" ends up being exactly that.

               

               

               

              As usual, DW hit the nail on the head with marathon training.

               

              I always like the Pfitz style long runs, around 22 miles or so, where I would run the last 8-10 miles at 90% of MP. I also enjoyed very long MP style runs, like RP described, of something like 2E + 14M + 2E. Whenever I nailed that workout, I knew I could run it in the race barring bad conditions day of.

               

              I was never a huge fan of just going out for 20-23 miles at some very slow pace, except maybe early in the cycle where you don't want to burn yourself out. Not only did I find them boring, but I wasn't sure what the point of them was after I had run a few marathons.

               

              On the other hand, I cannot under any circumstances imagine running all 22 miles at 90% of MP, unless I gave myself a ton of recovery both before and after that run.

              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

               

              SteveChCh


              Hot Weather Complainer

                Interesting.  My run on Saturday was 2.5m E, 16m 95% MP, 2.5m E and felt like I was cruising.  If I was one of you normal people who had run a successful marathon, maybe I'd be feeling the confidence.  I think for me it's good to take nothing for granted until I can see that finish line.

                 

                Caught up with my coach yesterday and he said I just need to nail one then start thinking about sub 3.  But he's a lunatic.

                5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:29:54 6/24

                 

                2024 Races:

                Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

                Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

                Wellington Marathon June 23, 2024 3:29:54

                Hagley Park Run July 20, 2024

                Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                Timaru Ten October 26, 2024

                Running Problem


                Problem Child

                  Interesting.  My run on Saturday was 2.5m E, 16m 95% MP, 2.5m E and felt like I was cruising.  If I was one of you normal people who had run a successful marathon, maybe I'd be feeling the confidence.  I think for me it's good to take nothing for granted until I can see that finish line.

                   

                  Caught up with my coach yesterday and he said I just need to nail one then start thinking about sub 3.  But he's a lunatic.

                   

                  My first sub 3hour marathon was based entirely on the Boston marathon cutoff being bullshit, and I ripped  2E + 8M just to see if I could do it. 2 months from race day.

                   

                  https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/4122317664

                  the notes are universally understood.

                  i miss this guy.

                  https://www.strava.com/athletes/11771317/posts/7209318

                   

                  https://www.strava.com/athletes/11771317/posts/7216579

                  Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                  VDOT 53.37 

                  5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                  Mikkey


                  Mmmm Bop

                     

                     Flavio & Mikkey: I would recommend the Greek islands in September (Crete, Mikonos, Paros, Santorini - or even some island hoping) or Nice/Cannes - why? because the water isn't as freezing cold as in Portugal. If you want to have a swim. France has the benefit of excellent food, and isn't as busy in September anymore. Greece is cheaper, but the food is a bit heavier. You can also fly out to Athens and then take a fary to one of the many islands - i.e. combine the holiday a bit with bigger city and then relaxing island. I love Greece. Have been to Portugal/Spain many times, but I am a foodie (that's why I jogg) so Cote d'Azur > Greece > Portugal > Italy/Spain

                     

                    Hah!  We were just talking about Santorini yesterday and that ticks all our boxes…it looks amazing and think that will be our destination! 😀

                    The long run debate…if you are truly dedicated about the marathon then experiment and figure out what works best for you rather than following a specific canned plan from a running book. Don’t get me wrong as there are some very good running books that explain running in simple terms…but make your own running plan and adjust accordingly!

                    My long runs have always been a mixture…plenty of time on feet slow lazy runs at 9min/miles which last over 3 hours…and others that have been more intense on the treadmill, eg 5x5k intervals at MP (I’ve never seen the point of running continuous long MP runs as that will always  take longer to recover imo for older runners)

                     

                    If you want to be a successful hobby jogger marathon runner like me, then it’s all about consistent high mileage over the years rather than focusing on the long run. 👍

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                       

                      Hah!  We were just talking about Santorini yesterday and that ticks all our boxes…it looks amazing and think that will be our destination! 😀

                      My long runs have always been a mixture…plenty of time on feet slow lazy runs at 9min/miles which last over 3 hours…and others that have been more intense on the treadmill, eg 5x5k intervals at MP (I’ve never seen the point of running continuous long MP runs as that will always  take longer to recover imo for older runners)

                       

                       

                      Glad to hear that; hoping for a post-trip report. I might want to go there in October (unless going back to Nice/Cannes, as I can just drive down).

                       

                      I hated those 3 hour jogs the most (at lower end of easy pace). And I am mentally struggling to commit to them. The 5x5k sound a lot more like what I would want to do (possibly starting with 3x5k and then upping that over time). What's your recovery between?

                       

                      The question for the forum: if my ambition is to eventually run a 3:30h marathon, can I get away with long runs that are up to 2hours-ish only? Can those 3 hour jogs be replaced for a slow marathoner with some MP intervals. Maybe there is a magic formula of 65% of race distance should be completed during training or similar.

                       

                      I think those long runs were really beneficial the last time around - and yet I hated them (did 5 with an average of 3 hours and 29k each). And I was really only running around 80km per week for 3 months.

                      HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)

                       

                      2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                         

                        My long runs have always been a mixture…plenty of time on feet slow lazy runs at 9min/miles which last over 3 hours…and others that have been more intense on the treadmill, eg 5x5k intervals at MP (I’ve never seen the point of running continuous long MP runs as that will always  take longer to recover imo for older runners)

                         

                        If you want to be a successful hobby jogger marathon runner like me, then it’s all about consistent high mileage over the years rather than focusing on the long run. 👍

                         

                        I don't think I could handle those long slow runs - the monotony would get to me (which is funny because I can go that long in the pool).

                         

                        I see your point about continuous MP runs being too hard to recover from.  At the same time, I have observed that it is way too easy to "cheat" on shorter MP intervals by running them too fast/hard. That's why I generally prefer MP intervals of 4 miles or more - those are long enough to force me to stay realistic in my pacing.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        mmerkle


                           

                          MMerkle - That's what Canova has his athletes doing. Stuff like 30km at 90% of marathon pace, or maybe even 28k at 95% of marathon pace.
                          He trains elites though, who usually don't have to work a 9-5.
                          Also, you're looking at this the wrong way. It's not that they own you on the marathon, it's YOU who owns them on the shorter distances.
                          They're the ones who should be freaking out why they're not as fast as you on the 5k.

                           

                           

                          I suppose you could look at it either way. I phrased it the way I did because my times over shorter distances "predict" a faster marathon than what I have been running. Also maybe only running 5ks in the heat is part of my problem with that distance lol.

                           

                          JMac/others Maybe this is part of my problem, but I find 10 + miles at MP pretty difficult. I've always found MP to be a very awkward pace during training. It's not uncommon for me to start off near tempo pace, then slow down too much, then pick it back up, etc. On race day MP feels very natural though. Is MP SUPPOSED to be difficult to hold that long during training?

                           

                          Mark On your comment about finding good packs in track races, my 17:30 seed time has me 2/3 of the way down a heat with seeds ranging from 15:49 to 18:54. Hopefully I can capitalize on this.

                           

                          dw The long slow runs to me are fine if they're on a trail, especially if it's hilly and/or technical.

                          Mikkey


                          Mmmm Bop

                             

                            Glad to hear that; hoping for a post-trip report. I might want to go there in October (unless going back to Nice/Cannes, as I can just drive down).

                             

                            I hated those 3 hour jogs the most (at lower end of easy pace). And I am mentally struggling to commit to them. The 5x5k sound a lot more like what I would want to do (possibly starting with 3x5k and then upping that over time). What's your recovery between?

                             

                            The question for the forum: if my ambition is to eventually run a 3:30h marathon, can I get away with long runs that are up to 2hours-ish only? Can those 3 hour jogs be replaced for a slow marathoner with some MP intervals. Maybe there is a magic formula of 65% of race distance should be completed during training or similar.

                             

                            I think those long runs were really beneficial the last time around - and yet I hated them (did 5 with an average of 3 hours and 29k each). And I was really only running around 80km per week for 3 months.

                             

                            I haven’t booked anything yet and looking at accommodation options….it will be there first time I’ve been abroad in 5 years and really looking forward to it Smile

                             

                            Yeah the 5x5k was my peak workout about 4/5 weeks out, but the build up was less intimidating, for me it’s always about getting X amount of time at goal MP heart rate and achieving that with the least amount of effort. I’ve always been flexible with training runs and just listen to my body…eg, sometimes I would have a workout planned at say 3x4k and if I’m struggling after the first one then I’ll change the rest of the workout to something like 4x2k…recovery is random, but generally 2min jog at recovery pace.


                            If you don’t like running long easy runs for 3+ hours then don’t do them as there are alternatives…we are hobby joggers and every run should be enjoyable. If you can up your mileage throughout the week then you’ll go Sub3:30 no sweat. 👍

                             

                            Don’t be a warrior in training runs…be a warrior on race day. 👍

                            5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                            wcrunner2


                            Are we there, yet?

                               

                              I hated those 3 hour jogs the most (at lower end of easy pace). And I am mentally struggling to commit to them. The 5x5k sound a lot more like what I would want to do (possibly starting with 3x5k and then upping that over time). What's your recovery between?

                               

                              The question for the forum: if my ambition is to eventually run a 3:30h marathon, can I get away with long runs that are up to 2hours-ish only? Can those 3 hour jogs be replaced for a slow marathoner with some MP intervals. Maybe there is a magic formula of 65% of race distance should be completed during training or similar.

                               

                              I think those long runs were really beneficial the last time around - and yet I hated them (did 5 with an average of 3 hours and 29k each). And I was really only running around 80km per week for 3 months.

                               

                              I've never specialized or focused on the marathon, so this is strictly personal experience.  I rarely ran more than 2 hours, 2:15 at the most and still ran sub-3:00, but that was when I was in the open division and a lot faster at shorter distances.  I've also never been an advocate of MP paced runs of any distance.  Perhaps it's my inexperience, but I've never been able to predict my actual MP with any accuracy, so I've always gone more by perceived effort.  So called MP runs might have been overkill in any case as I raced much more frequently then at 5K to HM distances than most people seem to now.

                               2024 Races:

                                    03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                                    05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                                    06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
                                    10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour

                               

                               

                                   

                              Mikkey


                              Mmmm Bop

                                 

                                I don't think I could handle those long slow runs - the monotony would get to me (which is funny because I can go that long in the pool).

                                 

                                I see your point about continuous MP runs being too hard to recover from.  At the same time, I have observed that it is way too easy to "cheat" on shorter MP intervals by running them too fast/hard. That's why I generally prefer MP intervals of 4 miles or more - those are long enough to force me to stay realistic in my pacing.

                                 

                                I remember you saying something like easy long runs don’t add value if you’re an experienced runner? 

                                Long easy runs never seemed to affect my body back when I was a 47yo youngster….in 2013 I was a 3:30 Brighton Marathon pacer and then ran a 2:51 at London the following week! I was so irresponsible back then Smile

                                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)