2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 271 times)

Mikkey


Mmmm Bop

     

    I would like to second this. In my field, I see a lot of ego-inflated people who are good at their work but have little interpersonal skills. They do not win the awards in the end, because no one wants to work with them. Running is different. It's a solo sport. But when it comes to coaching or giving advice, you'll find you can get somewhere with negative coaching strategies, but few people sign on to be abused. I didn't like how you told wcrunner to stfu, or belittle his experience or accomplishments. That doesn't negate the fact that your point about long-run workouts (with intervals) are perhaps more effective than straight long runs at a set pace.

     

     

     

     

    Just read this post and I guess it’s directed at me.

     

    I definitely don’t have an ego and anyone who knows me well knows that I just take the piss and have a laugh. I’ve got no interest in “interpersonal skills” and winning work awards at work.

     

    I remember you calling yourself a CIS woman last year rather than a normal biological woman and that’s when I realised that you are someone I don’t want to engage with. I can’t deal with people who pander to stupidity.

     

    I was giving Mmerkle advice on the marathon and not engaging with anyone else. 🤷‍♂️

    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

    mmerkle


      flavio You seem to be saying competitive is synonymous with elite. I think every elite runner is competitive but not every competitive runner is necessarily elite. I think it's more of a mindset but that's just me. I agree I'm not quite in sub 17 shape but I was hoping for something like 17:15 maybe.

       

      dltrotter That was essentially a "season opener", or rust buster for me. The 2 mile is the beginning of the series and I'm hoping it will go better after that 5k. Like you said, there is a mental aspect to racing short that takes getting used to.

       

      RP Awesome stuff. Looking forward to the race report.

       

      JMac I have not done a half marathon like that yet. Maybe I should try it. Good to know that it's not weird that I find 10 + at MP to be difficult.

       

      Steve Not focusining on previous attempts is the way to go. Those were the past.

       

      The Week

       

       

      <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
      in ft
      05/13 Day one of being instructor of record. Gonna be an interesting 5 weeks. 6.51 10.48 00:51:43 07:57 04:56 338
      05/13 Afternoon Run 5.05 8.13 00:39:36 07:50 04:52 305
      05/14 3 X 5 minutes Tempo effort with 1 minute jog recoveries 6.54 10.53 00:48:26 07:24 04:36 315
      05/14 Warm up 1.02 1.64 00:08:02 07:53 04:54 10
      05/14 4 X 1k Tempo with 200 jogs 3.01 4.85 00:19:05 06:20 03:56 0
      05/14 Cool Down 1.03 1.66 00:08:03 07:49 04:51 13
      05/16 Long warm up 4.04 6.50 00:31:39 07:50 04:52 180
      05/16 6 X 200 at 5k pace (ish) with 200 jogs 1.51 2.43 00:10:40 07:04 04:23 0
      05/16 Cool Down 2.53 4.08 00:18:24 07:16 04:31 148
      05/17 That run where I could hear live music at the local brewery and I just wanted to go day drink instead of running this race later 3.04 4.89 00:24:17 07:59 04:58 102
      05/17 Warm up 1.03 1.66 00:08:49 08:34 05:19 49
      05/17 Down the Stretch 5k 3.11 5.00 00:17:26 05:36 03:29 0
      05/18 Lunch Run 10.00 16.09 01:24:19 08:26 05:14 0
      05/19 Shorty Long 13.55 21.80 01:40:56 07:27 04:38 673

      Totals: Time: 07:51:25 - 🦅Imperial: 61.99 mi - Metric: 99.74 km

       

      So I ran the rust buster 5k Friday evening. I felt pretty good the first mile or so, then I just settled into a pace slightly faster than, or maybe on par with 10k pace. I just felt so gassed. My legs held up just fine though. I'm sure part of it was mental. I haven't felt that 5k pain in a long time. I picked it up a bit the final lap and came through in 17:25.79 official. This is a new 5k race PR, but still not quite a "5k in any conditions PR", which remains the (net downhill) 17:15 I did half way through my life 10k PR. I'd like to think I will have this mess sorted out by the end of the year. 

      DavePNW


        Flavio - thanks for staying on top of the Strava export tool! We need to get fishy to put the new link in the first post in the thread, because honestly that’s where I go to get it every time. I guess I could bookmark it but that would be too easy. 

        Another light week for me, now 3 weeks post-marathon. It helped force my recovery that week 2 I had a hectic business trip, and week 3 I was on a cruise vacation. My unenviable choices for the latter were running around the deck of the ship (8 laps per mile, dodging walkers), or the treadmill in a poorly air-conditioned fitness center. Anyway—I’d say I’m around 75% recovered. It usually takes me a solid month before I feel like myself again. I plan to be back to normal mileage next week, but I don’t have any interest in adding back speed anytime soon. I am targeting a half in 3 weeks. Not sure what to expect out of that—hopefully recovered, but little if any speed work in preparation—just working off whatever marathon fitness I’ve retained. Not sure what kind of experience any of you have with that.

         

        Incidentally—there’s a group that puts on a weekly all-comers track meet every summer, which starts up soon. It’s only a $10 fee; I’ve never participated, but always thought about it. They have everything from 100m to 5000m. I’ve never raced anything shorter than 5k, and never on a track. I think it would be fun to try a mile, or maybe 5000m. The thing that would be weird for me is that it’s held in the evening. The longer events are later—the mile is at 8:25 PM and the 5000 at 9:10 PM. I’m usually in bed by then, lol.

         

        Weekly for period: From: 05/13/2024 To 05/19/2024

        <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
        in ft
        05/13 Morning Run 6.30 10.14 01:00:00 09:31 05:55 0
        05/14 Treadmill 8.00 12.87 01:10:00 08:45 05:26 0
        05/16 Treadmill 10.00 16.09 01:26:07 08:37 05:21 0
        05/18 Morning Run 13.29 21.39 01:55:49 08:43 05:25 154
        05/19 Morning Run 5.03 8.10 00:50:06 09:58 06:11 233

        Totals: Time: 06:22:02 - 🦅Imperial: 42.63 mi - Metric: 68.59 km

        Dave

        SteveChCh


        Hot Weather Complainer

          mmerkle - That sounds like a pretty good hit out to me.  A few more and you'll smoke one.

           

          mikkey - I do enjoy your banter and your marathon knowledge (and the genuine encouragement when your wife jumps on your account).  I agree with the others that stfu to a guy with tons of experience and knowledge was a bit far.  His marathon time is basically the same as yours...also, I've decided I identify as a good marathon runner.  My pronouns are "f&*k off cramp".

           

          Flavio/CalBears - This is a confusing argument too...it seems like Calbears said we call this thread competitive but we're all slow, Flavio agreed and Calbears got offended?  We're definitely all competitive here, mostly with ourselves, even though the elites could smoke us doing a recovery run.

           

          Dorothea - Thanks for your kind words.  Yep, I booked the mental skills guy 9 days out deliberately.  He's highly in demand and works with some of our most elites teams and athletes.  There's a chance he gets called away overseas at the last minute (my last appointment was cancelled) but I have a back up plan in that case.  I'm happy I still have 13 days!  I'm not doing a steep taper this time, just rolling into it but will obviously back off a little.  I think last year a few people here suggested this approach and my coach organically came to the same conclusion.  As for things going wrong, EVERYONE is sick at the moment.  I'm Covid immune thanks to getting in early and having it in March but I'm sure there's other bugs around too.  I'm at peace with it - I'll do everything I can to stay healthy but if I get sick I'll be gutted but I'll move on.

           

          Nice 5km.  You might need to find a beer chiller to get a legitimate cool down...

           

          Mark - Thanks!  It's definitely time to look at this race with purpose and confidence, and not fear.  I'll be taking the shoes on my tempo run on Saturday.

          5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:29:54 6/24

           

          2024 Races:

          Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

          Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

          Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

          Wellington Marathon June 23, 2024 3:29:54

          Hagley Park Run July 20, 2024

          Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

          Timaru Ten October 26, 2024

          dktrotter


          Dorothea

            Dave, I've done cruise deck runs before and the most bizarre part was the GPS tracking. Since you're moving forward with the boat, the GPS tracks you slower when you run against the ship and twice as fast with it. Glad you got that needed recovery. That track meet sounds really cool. I'd love to have something like that down here! But I agree about evening races... I don't mind racing as much as having trouble sleeping after it. Is it one meet with all the events? Or a series with a different event every week?

             

            If you've got 3 weeks (6 weeks out from the marathon), you could easily do a workout or two these next two weeks... but if you don't feel like it... My experience (be it what it is) is that you can run pretty fast off your fitness 3 weeks post, but I don't know about longer than that.

            Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

            Last race: June 29, Hasenheide Parkrun, 22:19. A bit disappointing time, but it was still a fun event. 

            dktrotter


            Dorothea

               

              12-hours is currently one of my favorite events, so of course I would recommend the 12-hour on Nov. 30th.  Note this is the first year for that race, but given who it timing the race, it should be well run.

               

              I kind of like the simplicity of running in circles and having all the stuff I need every .25 miles. Will I hate it by the end? Probably. But your endorsement certainly helps me consider it more strongly than I already was.

              Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

              Last race: June 29, Hasenheide Parkrun, 22:19. A bit disappointing time, but it was still a fun event. 

              dktrotter


              Dorothea

                Ah, thank you! I really missed it. I appreciate the work you do to keep this maintained!

                I had to move the Strava tool because Heroku (previous host) started charging money.

                You can find it now at https://strava-weekly.fly.dev/

                Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                Last race: June 29, Hasenheide Parkrun, 22:19. A bit disappointing time, but it was still a fun event. 

                wcrunner2


                Are we there, yet?

                   

                  I kind of like the simplicity of running in circles and having all the stuff I need every .25 miles. Will I hate it by the end? Probably. But your endorsement certainly helps me consider it more strongly than I already was.

                   

                  There's often a lot more interaction with other runners in the fixed time races than in marathons because of the short laps.  There's also the frequent feedback on your pace and position.  With Mike Melton timing you'll be able to see your lap count, lap time, total distance, place, and probably some other information.  If you have crew with you, it's better to have them check and pass on the info so you don't have to slow down to read the monitor.  If you're really competitive about it, your crew can also check on the other runners and let you know how far ahead or behind they are.

                   2024 Races:

                        03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                        05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                        06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
                        10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour

                   

                   

                       

                  Mikkey


                  Mmmm Bop

                     

                     

                    mikkey - I do enjoy your banter and your marathon knowledge (and the genuine encouragement when your wife jumps on your account).  I agree with the others that stfu to a guy with tons of experience and knowledge was a bit far.  His marathon time is basically the same as yours...also, I've decided I identify as a good marathon runner.  My pronouns are "f&*k off cramp".

                     

                     

                    Steve - You know I love you and want you to run a great marathon! 😁

                     

                    I have Moose Mug Ray’s email address and think I will contact him and ask about the non binary folk…because I don’t think it’s fair that blokes that don’t think they are blokes should be discriminated.

                     

                    Does anyone know if Flavio non binary?

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                    DavePNW


                      Dave, I've done cruise deck runs before and the most bizarre part was the GPS tracking. Since you're moving forward with the boat, the GPS tracks you slower when you run against the ship and twice as fast with it. Glad you got that needed recovery. That track meet sounds really cool. I'd love to have something like that down here! But I agree about evening races... I don't mind racing as much as having trouble sleeping after it. Is it one meet with all the events? Or a series with a different event every week?

                       

                       

                      I recorded one deck run, which some of you may have seen on Strava. With the short loops, the movement of the ship overwhelmed everything else. The map just looks like a long stretch in the ocean; maybe you could see the loops if you zoomed in enough, but I didn’t try. In 40 minutes it had me going 15 miles; my watch beeped a mile about every 2.5 minutes, lol. When it came over to Strava, a message popped up “this activity will be marked private unless you change the activity type.” I searched all the activity types and found there was one for sailing, which seemed appropriate. When I set that, it converted the distance to nautical miles and the speed to knots, lol. 

                      On the track meet—it’s (basically) all events, every week. The exceptions are that they alternate weeks between the 1500m and mile, and between 3000m and 5000m. It has a fixed schedule of events, so for example every week the 1500/mile is at 8:25, and the 3000/5000 is at 9:10.

                       

                       

                      I kind of like the simplicity of running in circles and having all the stuff I need every .25 miles. Will I hate it by the end? Probably. But your endorsement certainly helps me consider it more strongly than I already was.

                       

                      I have no real interest in ultras, but if I ever do take the plunge I kind of have one picked out. There’s a race here every March with 5 hr and 12 hr options, consisting of 3-mile loops around a lake. I feel like I have a pretty high tolerance for boredom anyway, but this setting seems a bit more interesting than a track. There’s always a lot of people and activity around this lake, so plenty of visual distractions. The 3 miles seems good to me because it’s long enough that every loop is bumping up your distance a decent amount, but short enough that “just one more loop” does not seem too intimidating.

                      Dave

                      CalBears


                        mikkey - I do enjoy your banter and your marathon knowledge (and the genuine encouragement when your wife jumps on your account).  I agree with the others that stfu to a guy with tons of experience and knowledge was a bit far.  His marathon time is basically the same as yours...also, I've decided I identify as a good marathon runner.  My pronouns are "f&*k off cramp".

                         

                        Flavio/CalBears - This is a confusing argument too...it seems like Calbears said we call this thread competitive but we're all slow, Flavio agreed and Calbears got offended?  We're definitely all competitive here, mostly with ourselves, even though the elites could smoke us doing a recovery run.

                         

                        How is their marathon time the same? The age when marathon was ran is not even close and 10 minutes difference? 82% AG vs 71% AG is the same?

                         

                        I am not offended at all. Maybe the delivery of my message was not very clear.

                         

                        wcrunner - of course you do not need to run fast to be a successful coach. But if you didn't run a successful marathon and continue advising others the training that failed to deliver a fast marathon and open your potential, something is definitely wrong, I think.

                        paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                        wcrunner2


                        Are we there, yet?

                           

                          wcrunner - of course you do not need to run fast to be a successful coach. But if you didn't run a successful marathon and continue advising others the training that failed to deliver a fast marathon and open your potential, something is definitely wrong, I think.

                           

                          Just because my AG rating for the marathon is less than my rating for shorter distances doesn't make my marathons less successful.  Granted a few of my marathons haven't been successful; I've been very inconsistent.  But I have several very successful marathons when you compare them to my fitness at the time as indicated by other races and also my performance compared to other runners I've raced against.  Running 2:56 two months after running 1:25 for a HM would, I think, count as successful.  I would also count as moderately successful beating a fellow runner by 8 minutes who had finished several minutes ahead of me at Boston. That was a particularly interesting race because I moved up from 40th at halfway to finish 18th OA in a small field.

                           

                          You also keep ignoring that one may be better suited for shorter races than they are for the marathon, but still expect marathon times to be as good as those in shorter races.

                           2024 Races:

                                03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                                05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                                06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
                                10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour

                           

                           

                               

                          SteveChCh


                          Hot Weather Complainer

                             

                            How is their marathon time the same? The age when marathon was ran is not even close and 10 minutes difference? 82% AG vs 71% AG is the same?

                             

                            AG is a different conversation.  But a 6 minute difference for non-elites is close enough to the same, you'd have to be a competitive jerk to care about 6 minutes   The trick is to run a few shockers then 6 minutes is nothing.

                            5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:29:54 6/24

                             

                            2024 Races:

                            Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                            Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

                            Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

                            Wellington Marathon June 23, 2024 3:29:54

                            Hagley Park Run July 20, 2024

                            Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                            Timaru Ten October 26, 2024

                            Marky_Mark_17


                               

                              Just because my AG rating for the marathon is less than my rating for shorter distances doesn't make my marathons less successful.  Granted a few of my marathons haven't been successful; I've been very inconsistent.  But I have several very successful marathons when you compare them to my fitness at the time as indicated by other races and also my performance compared to other runners I've raced against.  Running 2:56 two months after running 1:25 for a HM would, I think, count as successful.  I would also count as moderately successful beating a fellow runner by 8 minutes who had finished several minutes ahead of me at Boston. That was a particularly interesting race because I moved up from 40th at halfway to finish 18th OA in a small field.

                               

                              You also keep ignoring that one may be better suited for shorter races than they are for the marathon, but still expect marathon times to be as good as those in shorter races.

                               

                              Totally fair point.

                               

                              Everyone has distances they are better or worse at.  You wouldn't expect anyone to have the same age-graded % across every distance.  That doesn't mean they don't have insights about what might work or not in training for a particular distance.

                               

                               

                              In my view (and again I'm paraphrasing Steve Magness here), there's no substitute for putting in the work.  Run enough races and you've got enough of a sample of what worked well, and what didn't, to be able to talk credibly to it.

                              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                              * Net downhill course

                              Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                              Up next: Still working on that...

                              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                              Marky_Mark_17


                                The trick is to run a few shockers then 6 minutes is nothing.

                                 

                                Drive expectations down low and then you're guaranteed to outperform!  Classic strategy lol.

                                3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                                10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                                * Net downhill course

                                Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                                Up next: Still working on that...

                                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"