2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber (Read 631 times)


Interval Junkie --Nobby

    . . .but there is no way a 6:50 marathoner can maintain 7:20 pace for 20 miles in a training run. You'd have to be more like a 3:30+ type runner to do that. The best long run of my past PR cycle, and honestly maybe ever, was about 50 seconds per mile slower than my MP for 22 miles. So I'd say a 2:59 runner could maybe hit one or two 7:30 long runs in a cycle.

     

    This 20miler is from my 2:59 PR training.  Not sure if you'd consider this a "long run" because there was a prescribed 3mil progressive interval workout.  Avg pace is 7:20.  Then there was one "Time on Feet" run where you just try to stay out there as long as your objective run will take.  7:50pace for 22miles.  A pretty "lazy" run, if I remember correctly.

     

    These were coached runs -- that is, objectives and paces were defined by Coach.  He also trains Olympic qualifying athletes, MCM winners, and 6hr first-timers.

    2016 Goals: Lose the 10lbs I gained for not having goals

    JMac11


    Taper Czar

       

      This 20miler is from my 2:59 PR training.  Not sure if you'd consider this a "long run" because there was a prescribed 3mil progressive interval workout.  Avg pace is 7:20.  Then there was one "Time on Feet" run where you just try to stay out there as long as your objective run will take.  7:50pace for 22miles.  A pretty "lazy" run, if I remember correctly.

       

      These were coached runs -- that is, objectives and paces were defined by Coach.  He also trains Olympic qualifying athletes, MCM winners, and 6hr first-timers.

       

      This isn't what I'm envisioning. I've done 18 miles with 14 at MP that averaged overall 20 seconds slower than my MP for my 2:36. Kipchoge notoriously has done 40K in 2:15 on tough courses in training. That's not really your bread and butter long run. It's not that you can't do it. Your long run is a classic progression long run to faster than MP for people in the 3 hour range.

       

      He also had 7:20 pace for 7:00 minute runners, so more like 3:03ish. It just seems pretty damn fast as your normal long run.

      5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

      Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

      CalBears


         

        This 20miler is from my 2:59 PR training.  Not sure if you'd consider this a "long run" because there was a prescribed 3mil progressive interval workout.  Avg pace is 7:20.  Then there was one "Time on Feet" run where you just try to stay out there as long as your objective run will take.  7:50pace for 22miles.  A pretty "lazy" run, if I remember correctly.

         

        These were coached runs -- that is, objectives and paces were defined by Coach.  He also trains Olympic qualifying athletes, MCM winners, and 6hr first-timers.

         

        I have plenty of data too - here is one of my LRs for my first sub 3 (2:58:58) marathon - hot weather, not the easiest course in LA - so, your example is just some specific case - my guess your weekly mileage was not that good. During the same cycle most of my LRs were slower than 8 minutes - without any MP runs within those - just pure steady efforts runs. Actually, the only time I had LR runs at 7:10-7:20 pace was when I training for sub 2:50 time and I ran 2:48. So, I still think it's totally crazy to require 7:20 pace  runs for 6:50 pace marathoners.

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

        Running Problem


        Curmudgeon

          https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/California-s-public-health-director-resigns-amid-15471325.php

           

          Goodbye CIM.

           

          Gov. Gavin Newsom’s director of the California Department of Public Health resigned on Sunday, an abrupt departure of a key adviser in the state’s coronavirus battle just days after the discovery of a computer system failure that resulted in the undercounting of COVID-19 cases.

          Dr. Sonia Angell, who held the position for less than a year, announced her resignation in an email sent to department staff that was released by the California Health and Human Services Agency.

          2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

          CalBears


            https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/California-s-public-health-director-resigns-amid-15471325.php

             

            Goodbye CIM.

             

            Gov. Gavin Newsom’s director of the California Department of Public Health resigned on Sunday, an abrupt departure of a key adviser in the state’s coronavirus battle just days after the discovery of a computer system failure that resulted in the undercounting of COVID-19 cases.

            Dr. Sonia Angell, who held the position for less than a year, announced her resignation in an email sent to department staff that was released by the California Health and Human Services Agency.

             

            It's was a known issue for awhile - but my guess of CIM not happening was based on the state of the total scare around here - as I mentioned before, one of my favorite races (half marathon) was cancelled a month ago and its race date was in first week of November. And it was cancelled - just because it doesn't make sense for them to keep people's hopes alive - amidst the numbers that are crazy bad compering to what we had in April - May. So, it's easier for them to cancel I guess and go with their other business. The same will happen to CIM - I do not see several thousand runners running in first week of December right now - just looks at the numbers that are not coming down for couple of months by now. And I do not think there is one state person who would allow to run anything of this scale in nearest future - until number of cases in California like few hundreds maybe and no deaths, not 10,000 and few hundred deaths every day.

            paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


            Interval Junkie --Nobby

              . . . my guess your weekly mileage was not that good. . . .

               

              Yeah, I don't know what you consider "good".  80mpw.  Topping out at 89.  *shrug*

               

              I just offered my runs as examples of "it's not crazy".  Not statistically relevant.  Most, if not all, of my 20mi runs were structured -- the loosest being keep easy pace for 16mils, then bring it to MP for the last 3.  It would have to be pretty early on in the training cycle to have a 20mi easy run at 8min pace.  The article is too vague to make a training plan from.

              2016 Goals: Lose the 10lbs I gained for not having goals

              CalBears


                 Yeah, I don't know what you consider "good".  80mpw.  Topping out at 89.  *shrug*

                 

                I just offered my runs as examples of "it's not crazy".  Not statistically relevant.  Most, if not all, of my 20mi runs were structured -- the loosest being keep easy pace for 16mils, then bring it to MP for the last 3.  It would have to be pretty early on in the training cycle to have a 20mi easy run at 8min pace.  The article is too vague to make a training plan from.

                 

                Yeah, that's a great mileage. My mileage was lower - averaged 70 mpw. Hansons plan with longer than 16 miles LRs Smile. And I was 48 yo. And I think I had some left in the tank (yeah, I know - I was awesome Smile Ok, I would agree it's not crazy to run 7:20 LRs during training, but I still think for 7:20 LRs is more logical to have 6:30 pace for the marathon, not 6:50 - because it's crazy Smile

                paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


                Interval Junkie --Nobby

                  The article doesn't contextualize it, but I'd think a 7:20 mpm is a "workout" and 7:50 is a casual run for the term "Long Run" in a sub-3 marathoner's lexicon.  If you just need to log a 20, then 7:50 - 8:15 is absolutely fine.  And it will give you a nice base.  If you're sharpening at the end of your cycle, then a 7:20 is not out of the question.

                   

                  (for reference, I was 40 at the time -- I mention this because 30yos do all kinds of dumb stuff and get away with it)

                  2016 Goals: Lose the 10lbs I gained for not having goals

                  Running Problem


                  Curmudgeon

                    SO GLAD I'm not marathon training right now. I'd be screwed with my long runs.

                    2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                    Magrawlas


                      The link he meant to include is this one:

                       

                      https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2015/mar/04/marathon-training-at-what-pace-should-you-do-your-long-runs

                       

                      (reposting to be helpful, not claiming to be pro/con the article)

                       

                      Thanks Riopez, the technical support here is amazing Smile

                      JMac11


                      Taper Czar

                        SO GLAD I'm not marathon training right now. I'd be screwed with my long runs.

                         

                        Me too. I thought about maybe going up in mileage this fall. Nope, this reminds me how awful marathon training is. I'll happily stick with my 40-60 MPW until the winter when hopefully we'll have better insight into spring 21 races.

                        5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                        Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                        Magrawlas


                          Well there were go.  After 102 days of zero covid community spread we have a untraceable /unexplained outbreak in New Zealand.  Family of four in South Auckland, no links to confirmed isolated cases.  So we moving back  to lock down levels tomorrow.  My marathon on 30th of August bound to be postponed again. Fingers crossed people comply with the rules and we can ring fence and contact trace and stop this Bastard thing spreading.  Oh well,  small potatoes for me compared to the economic hardship people will go through now.  I'm  close to the fittest I've been in my life and about to turn 50.  Shit  happens. ..

                          Teresadfp


                          One day at a time

                            Well there were go.  After 102 days of zero covid community spread we have a untraceable /unexplained outbreak in New Zealand.  Family of four in South Auckland, no links to confirmed isolated cases.  So we moving back  to lock down levels tomorrow.  My marathon on 30th of August bound to be postponed again. Fingers crossed people comply with the rules and we can ring fence and contact trace and stop this Bastard thing spreading.  Oh well,  small potatoes for me compared to the economic hardship people will go through now.  I'm  close to the fittest I've been in my life and about to turn 50.  Shit  happens. ..

                             

                            So sorry.  I'm glad your government is being so cautious, though.   My state, Maine, has the second lowest rate of infection in the country, but we still have ten to twenty new cases a day.

                            Running Problem


                            Curmudgeon

                               

                              Me too. I thought about maybe going up in mileage this fall. Nope, this reminds me how awful marathon training is. I'll happily stick with my 40-60 MPW until the winter when hopefully we'll have better insight into spring 21 races.

                               

                              40-60 seems awesome until I think if what it will be like to transition back to marathon race shape. Quarantine has definitely learned me in the ways of darkwave and why staying ready to race is an excellent idea. Without any speed or tempo work I have lost that ability to push through the uncomfortable moments in training and the mental toughness is going to be a bigger training curve than physical. This is going to be like coming back from 2018 when I thought Chicago was going to be cake.

                              2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                              pepperjack


                              pie man

                                Kenai River marathon in Alaska looks like it's happening next month (unless something changes in the next few weeks, i'm betting on no though).  They will let you in the state with a negative test 72 hours out currently.  Might actually think about that one.  Need a sub 4 up there.

                                 

                                edit: not certified for a BQ!

                                11:11 3,000 (recent)