2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber (Read 631 times)

JMac11


Taper Czar

    RP - you're a bizzaro situation where you can run sub 3 but not the equivalent faster times. Usually it's the other way around, but I will say you're in good company with the man you ran with: Cal, as I know he has mentioned struggling with shorter races in the past. You should just follow what me and Cal are doing: train for the next few months for 5K/10K training. It's a perfect fall activity, you can get some TTs in, and it's a great speed base before putting in big mileage for Boston starting in December.

    5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

    Running Problem


    Curmudgeon

      The shorter races are where I started and then just enjoyed the training of marathons, did a Hanson cycle and stopped investing in races other than a goal race. I’m also extremely “not accepting” of being a sub 3 marathoner so being able to POSSIBLY run a 6:17 pace for a 10k is crazy. I’m thinking of just straight up marathon cycle through December then taking a few weeks off for holidays and back at it when the weather sucks. I think at one point in my running life i was all about time trials pointing towards a goal and now I’ve switched to workouts and paced training runs supporting the goal so I was just wondering. A 10k probably sucks WAAAAAAAY more than a marathon or 6.5 hour ultra.

      2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

      CalBears


         You should just follow what me and Cal are doing: train for the next few months for 5K/10K training. 

         

        Ha-ha-ha - I am not doing anything right now - I am in such a low point with all this covid/shelter-in-place/local fires/air quality situation that I cannot find a gram of motivation to make myself out for even a short running Sad

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


        Elite Jogger

          The shorter races are where I started and then just enjoyed the training of marathons, did a Hanson cycle and stopped investing in races other than a goal race. I’m also extremely “not accepting” of being a sub 3 marathoner so being able to POSSIBLY run a 6:17 pace for a 10k is crazy. I’m thinking of just straight up marathon cycle through December then taking a few weeks off for holidays and back at it when the weather sucks. I think at one point in my running life i was all about time trials pointing towards a goal and now I’ve switched to workouts and paced training runs supporting the goal so I was just wondering. A 10k probably sucks WAAAAAAAY more than a marathon or 6.5 hour ultra.

           

          I’ve always thought the 10k is the worst suck race, especially if you start out at 5k pace. 😁

           

          Seriously, you are selling yourself waaay short and probably could’ve run a 38min 10k last year during CIM training. But iirc, you don’t do many tune-up races, so....

          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

             

            I’ve always thought the 10k is the worst suck race, especially if you start out at 5k pace. 😁

             

            Seriously, you are selling yourself waaay short and probably could’ve run a 38min 10k last year during CIM training. But iirc, you don’t do many tune-up races, so....

             

            I agree with Mikkey; at least when you are in sub 3 shape, you should be able to break 39 in the 10k. I ran a 38:59 10k before I first broke 3 hours.

            2:52:16 (2018)

            Longboat


            On the roads again...

               

              12x400 today aiming for a 6:00/mi pace (82-84 seconds) was a bout as bad as it needed to be to get me into gear. Hit a low point where I didn't think I'd make the whole workout and just worked right though it. Quitting is a contagious virus and I'm not catching it this early in marathon training season.

               

               

              EDIT : 2

              Race predictors....are they accurate? Do people put a lot of stock in them other than JMac and Darkwave?

              http://www.runningfoundation.com/Pace_Charts/RaceTimePredictorChart.html.htm

              https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/hmmcalculator/race_equivalency_calculator.php

               

              Both of these say I need to run a sub 39 10k to support a sub 3 marathon. 6:17/mi pace seems BLAZING fast. STUPID fast. Are these based off being in shape to race the distance on the day of? There is a local flat out and back 10k organized (unofficial race due to COVID 19) measured by GPS and I've run the course enough to say "yeah it's a 6.2ish mile loop). 6:17 just seems UNGODLY fast and I've actually run a sub 3 marathon (on a downhill course) once. I WAS thinking about heading to the 10k for a time trial type event but after looking at the time I have to hit it seems ridiculous to even try.

              First, I'm not quite sure what the 82-84 second target for 400's was based on. You don't need to be running interval paces that fast for a sub-3 marathon. Daniels' tables (download from http://www.electricblues.com/html/runpro.html) show 88 sec "I" (for Interval) pace at 88 seconds for 2:59. If you were trying to do the "R" pace at 82 sec, 12 reps would be much too difficult a workout. If you came that close, you're in better shape than you think.

              The race equivalent tables (they are NOT "predictors") are generally fairly accurate, but the proviso is always "when equally trained for both events" that you're trying to compare. On the old RWOL, we used to try to help marathoners set their pace based on shorter races plus their training, long runs, etc. It was generally agreed that equally trained usually required 70 mpw for the marathon, or faster shorter race equivalents with less mileage. 
              For you, the sub-3 would have looked ungoldly fast a couple of years ago when you were running shorter races. Looking beck now, the 10k times probably look that way because you haven't trained for that distance and you're thinking of when you last ran them. Maybe you're not capable of a sub-39 110k now, but if you're able to go sub-3 marathon, the 10k is in your range -- with a little tra\ining.

              Jmac's suggestion of a training cycle for shorter races is a good one. It will help you maximize the marathon training when you start winding up for Boston next spring... (or whenever). Burnout could be a problem if you try two marathon training cycles in a row with little variety. Racing a 10k does suck, but less than a marathon, and a fast 10k does support the faster marathon.

              Neil

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson

              JMac11


              Taper Czar

                Longboat is spot on with both his point on your paces, 12x4 being too hard to start if it's R, and why I recommended a 5K/10k block. Memorize that post.

                5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                Running Problem


                Curmudgeon

                  I was wrong on the times. They were 90 seconds with 95 second recovery.

                   

                  edit: I also forgot I had the jack Daniels book ( the Bible ) until much later in the day.

                  2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.


                  Elite Jogger

                    I was wrong on the times. They were 90 seconds with 95 second recovery.

                     

                    edit: I also forgot I had the jack Daniels book ( the Bible ) until much later in the day.

                     

                    Have you ever thought of being your own coach and calling yourself Coach Running Problem?  If so, then get Brad Hudson’s ‘Run Faster’ book as that is the true runners Bible.

                     

                    https://www.amazon.com/Run-Faster-5K-Marathon-Coach/dp/0767928229

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                    JMac11


                    Taper Czar

                       

                      Have you ever thought of being your own coach and calling yourself Coach Running Problem?  If so, then get Brad Hudson’s ‘Run Faster’ book as that is the true runners Bible.

                       

                      https://www.amazon.com/Run-Faster-5K-Marathon-Coach/dp/0767928229

                       

                      Blasphemy. Daniels is king.

                      5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                      Running Problem


                      Curmudgeon

                         

                        Have you ever thought of being your own coach and calling yourself Coach Running Problem?  If so, then get Brad Hudson’s ‘Run Faster’ book as that is the true runners Bible.

                         

                        https://www.amazon.com/Run-Faster-5K-Marathon-Coach/dp/0767928229

                         

                        With how my 2020 (life) is going I'd get it all wrong. Already started off doing marathon training wrong (back to back cycles again) and misrepresenting my workout. Might as well give it a shot.

                         

                        Oh and Hanson's > JD > this other guy. Is he the same guy who created that "couch to 5k" app I've been hearing about?

                        2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                        rlopez


                          No.

                           

                          I mean, not if it is the couch to 5k app that has its roots in the old coolrunning/kick sites. But people do keep reusing the name.

                          Brad Hudson's Run Faster was all the rage about 5-8 years ago (the book itself is 12 years old now).

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            Brewing/Problem - I'm glad someone else caught that 400s thing (i.e. that 82-84 is NOT 6:00 pace....)

                             

                            JTReeves - I ran that Harrisburg mile on Wednesday.  The Covid 19 restrictions/changes worked well, and from what I hear were considered a success.  My hunch/hope is that the marathon may indeed go ahead, with a rolling start.  I see that as of today they updated the site for the September half-marathon, indicating that it is happening.  My hunch is that they were using the mile as a test run for the half.

                             

                            As for the mile?  I ran an official time of 6:55 (not a typo) after taking a wrong turn.  Honestly, I am fairly certain I wasn't going to even break 6 without the wrong turn - combination of lack of fitness, being a bit careful of the hamstring, and a course that wasn't the fastest.  Still totally worth it to go up there - it felt so delightfully normal to be racing.

                             

                            (race report here)

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                               

                              JTReeves - I ran that Harrisburg mile on Wednesday.  The Covid 19 restrictions/changes worked well, and from what I hear were considered a success.  My hunch/hope is that the marathon may indeed go ahead, with a rolling start.  I see that as of today they updated the site for the September half-marathon, indicating that it is happening.  My hunch is that they were using the mile as a test run for the half.

                               

                              As for the mile?  I ran an official time of 6:55 (not a typo) after taking a wrong turn.  Honestly, I am fairly certain I wasn't going to even break 6 without the wrong turn - combination of lack of fitness, being a bit careful of the hamstring, and a course that wasn't the fastest.  Still totally worth it to go up there - it felt so delightfully normal to be racing.

                               

                              (race report here)

                               

                              DW: Sorry to hear about the wrong turn but I'm glad it was a good experience overall. Now I'm wondering about course markings and personnel guiding runners for the marathons. With bare-bones staffing due to COVID plus rolling starts, I could imagine a scenario where a runner may be quite isolated and if the course is not well-marked could get off track.

                               

                              Good to hear Harrisburg is moving ahead with the half next month; that bodes well for them doing the marathon (unless the half is a total disaster...).

                              2:52:16 (2018)

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                 

                                DW: Sorry to hear about the wrong turn but I'm glad it was a good experience overall. Now I'm wondering about course markings and personnel guiding runners for the marathons. With bare-bones staffing due to COVID plus rolling starts, I could imagine a scenario where a runner may be quite isolated and if the course is not well-marked could get off track.

                                 

                                Agreed.  And looking at the normal Harrisburg Marathon course, it's quite a tricky one - not one I could memorize.

                                 

                                I do think that some of the issue in my case is that they assumed that anyone running the race would be local, and thus familiar with City Island, which would reduce the risk of an error like mine.  For a marathon they won't be making that assumption.

                                 

                                I also think that use of cones can do a lot to reduce the risk of something like this - in retrospect, I'm surprised that they didn't use them for the turn I missed.  I'm guessing it's because they didn't have enough (they had to use a lot of cones to mark off the final part of the course in the parking lot).

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.