Forums >Racing>2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber
Houston Marathon 2020 race and cycle recap:
I’ve slowly been coming back from an injury that originally popped up in December 2015 (some sort of psoas strain or something) that lead to a hamstring tear in March of 2016. I didn’t realize it was a psoas issue until summer of 2018, and even then, it took me about 6 months to get things right. But I finally did and started 2019 optimistically. Turns out I had reason to be optimistic; I think I’m finally over this injury.
Mileage
I started ramping up my mileage at the end of the summer, and by the beginning of August, I was hitting 50 miles per week. I kept my mileage at 50 to low 60s until I took a 9-day trip around Thanksgiving. Returning from Thanksgiving, I got my mileage back up to 70 miles per week and held that for 5 weeks before a taper. That’s the most mileage of done for a marathon.
Quality
My weeks are more or less consistent. I aim to run 7 days a week, with one long run and one workout. My workouts started at the end of September, and I had one most weeks until the taper. I really just did things somewhere in the general range of T, that I define is what I think I can hold for an hour. My long runs I generally did on the moderate side. So starting easy, and working my way towards marathon pace effort. I had 9 runs in the 19 to 21 mile range in the last 12 weeks leading to the taper. Sometimes I’d reach marathon pace, sometimes fasters, sometimes a little short. But either way they were definitely a quality day. All my other days were easy, hovering around the 7:50 to 8:30 range.
In the last weeks leading up to the taper, I followed JMac’s suggested workouts, and those all went well. This is what I did:
2E+2T+6E+2T+2E
10E+3T+2E
5E+2T+5E+2T+1E
6E+3x2T+1E
1T+2M+1T+2M (plus wu&cd)
I aimed for my T to be around 6:10. Some of the T miles were run a little faster towards the end, but interestingly, what I thought was “T” effort, never really got easier. So the faster T paces were probably overrun a bit. Generally in the past I’ve done workouts leading up to half marathons with the idea of running about 10s faster than HMP effort for a total amount of work of 6 miles. I’m guessing that would end up being in the T to 10k pace vicinity. And in those past builds to half marathons, the paces got faster week over week. And usually significantly faster (like 15+ seconds). This cycle, the workouts I was following had fewer T miles, but also more overall miles. I was hoping that this was a better marathon workout compared to half marathon workouts. And it could have been.
Races during my cycle
The main one was a half at the end of October. With a friend, I had agreed to pace a girl to a sub 1:20. I thought I was in sub 1:20 shape, but knew I would at a minimum get her to 10 miles on pace (which was fine by me). We took off in the race with an idea of easing in to pace, but my friend just bolted (she was the one that first stated the “start easy” plan). I was 10s back from her at the first mile marker, and I clicked off 5:41. The girl we were supposed to be pacing was another 5s back. I knew we were fast, but I was not totally sure if the markers were off (GPS wasn’t reliable since the first mile was downtown). Either way, I let my friend take off and I eased back in to a more reasonable pace. We were right on pace all the way until 11.5, and things felt totally great at 10. I remember crossing 10 and thinking, I’ll easily get under 1:20. Well, the wheels somehow came off at 11.5 out of nowhere (the girl I was pacing luckily felt better than me and managed to get under 1:20). I finished a little under 1:21. I didn’t put too much thought in to this race because I had run one of my first big long runs the weekend before, and I also had just started workouts. So I just thought I didn’t quite have enough to finish things off.
I raced a couple of other races, including a disappointing 10k, but I do think that was a bit long, and I had slept like crap the night before with a kid throwing up all night. So I just let that go too. My only other race was a 25k that I didn’t really even plan to race all out. I wanted to run 2 easy, then MP. It went more or less where I should have expected it to go based on where I was at that moment.
Taper
I generally do a 10 day taper, but I’d say this one was closer to 14 days. I ran 53 miles then 25 (plus race) in the last two weeks, coming off a 70 mile per week average. Ran a hard long run of 19.7 miles 15 days out, and my last workout 11 days out. I ran 12 miles with 3x1 mile at 6:10 down to 6 flat with a full mile between 8 days out, then the last faster running was 3x half mile on Wednesday before. Legs felt great going in to the race.
Race
Here are my manual splits:
Lap Dist Time Pace Avg. lap HR
1 1.00 mi 6:45 6:42 /mi 149 bpm
2 1.00 mi 6:27 6:25 /mi 166 bpm
3 1.00 mi 6:18 6:15 /mi 168 bpm
4 1.02 mi 6:28 6:19 /mi 170 bpm
5 1.01 mi 6:26 6:22 /mi 170 bpm
6 1.00 mi 6:25 6:23 /mi 168 bpm
7 1.01 mi 6:31 6:27 /mi 168 bpm
8 1.00 mi 6:29 6:28 /mi 169 bpm
9 1.00 mi 6:28 6:28 /mi 168 bpm
10 1.02 mi 6:30 6:19 /mi 169 bpm
11 1.00 mi 6:30 6:28 /mi 160 bpm
12 1.00 mi 6:33 6:31 /mi 169 bpm
13 2.02 mi 13:29 6:40 /mi 169 bpm
14 1.00 mi 6:52 6:49 /mi 169 bpm
15 1.01 mi 6:51 6:47 /mi 168 bpm
16 1.01 mi 6:56 6:49 /mi 168 bpm
17 1.00 mi 6:57 6:53 /mi 169 bpm
18 1.01 mi 7:07 7:03 /mi 168 bpm
19 1.01 mi 7:06 7:01 /mi 167 bpm
20 1.00 mi 7:15 7:12 /mi 167 bpm
21 3.03 mi 22:39 7:28 /mi 166 bpm
22 1.00 mi 7:34 7:32 /mi 168 bpm
23 1.24 mi 8:36 6:54 /mi 170 bpm
I took off and felt great. Eased in to the pace I wanted, was running with some friends, and things felt smooth. Mile 3 was a bit fast (I’d trust the lap time over pace in the above), but that was a turn south with a little downhill and some wind. So nothing crazy. I felt great through 10. I typically pace marathons by three things: my pace goal; how I feel; and heart rate. In the past, I’ve generally been okay with keeping HR in the 163 to 166 range for the first 15 miles. After that, it can drift up and I’ve been able to maintain pace. For some unknown reason, when the race started, I decided not to look at my HR. I was feeling quite confident on how things were feeling, and I thought the pace was generally okay. My pace target had been to keep things in the 6:25 to 6:30 range (and again, I only look at the lap split, for the most part, which is manual. I don’t look at the GPS pace as I’m running).
Some point just before the half, things changed quickly. All of a sudden, I realized this pace wasn’t sustainable. I kept the effort the same, as best I could, and kept seeing the splits slow. I knew that if I tried to force myself on to pace, it would end badly. Or, really badly. So I just gave up on my pace goals at that point, and kind of stopped looking at splits too.
The interesting thing is, this wasn’t like many other bad races I’ve had. I have had many just total blow ups. I generally get to 16 to 20 feeling good, and then my legs just give out. My legs never gave out at any point. It just felt like keeping what was my pace for the first half would have been like 10k effort. Both in my legs and aerobically. I knew that wasn’t going to happen. I’ve said this was the best trained I’ve ever been, and I hold on to that. Things were really hard at the end, yet my legs never turned to jello. I had a friend run with me for part of the last 3 miles and he gave me a little boost. And then somehow, I managed to pick things up a bit in the last mile as I knew sub 3 was still a possibility.
Nutrition
I hate this part of marathons. I hate drinking, and definitely hate eating. I took a gel down before 5, which felt like crap, but got over a mile later, and took another one just before 11. Same. My fall off happened soon after this, so I really don’t think it was a “you didn’t take in enough calories” issue. As the slow down happened, my stomach felt worse. I ended up not eating or drinking anything after 15. I really don’t think that had much of an effect. I did the same as I’ve done for almost all my recent races which is to take some Tailwind 2.5 hours before the start.
Weather
The temp and humidity were absolutely perfect. There was a bit of wind (or a lot in the second half), but that was more annoying than anything. If I had run a good race, at most I think it would have slowed me by a minute in the second half. I was never cold or hot. I ran in a singlet and ditched my gloves at mile 3.
Some other good points that were raised:
Weights—Mikkey brought up the question of whether I’d kept up a weight lifting routine. No. I stopped that in July, right before my mileage build up. Not really on purpose, but when I stopped and added miles, it felt real easy to add miles for the first time in a long time. So I thought the two might be related. I absolutely had my best results when doing weights, so I need to find a way to bring that back in to my running in a safe way.
Easier long runs or time on feet – I really don’t know about this. Most of my long runs were in the 2:20 to 2:40 range, and I feel like that was enough time on feet. And again, I didn’t mind to keep going well past that 2:40 time. My legs held up, so I have some doubts that was an issue. Maybe I’m missing something though.
Don’t let a race define you – Slammin raises good points, but at the same time, it’s somewhat inconsistent with what JMac said last month which I totally agree with. If you keep doing the same training and get results you don’t want, why are you doing the same thing? I think just saying “that wasn’t my day; up and onward!” without taking the time to try and evaluate what happened is not good. No race or any running goal would ever define me. This is absolutely a hobby of mine. I’m a lot more proud of many other things I have going on in my life so even if I nitpick at this result, it’s not going to bring me down. And even in running, I know that I will always be better at the half as compared to the marathon. That’s just not going to change. I plan to keep doing marathons, but I love the half so much more. I also think it’s much easier for me (comparatively, obviously).
Conclusion
Ultimately, I think what happened was I was just slightly off on my pace. I should have probably had a 6:35 goal. Cal has often said that running a marathon isn’t overly complicated. You run a good race, then you try to improve your training a little, and improve your time a little. I tried to make a big jump. I should have run a good and comfortable low 2:50s and see what happened from there.
Upcoming races: Boston
No race or any running goal would ever define me. This is absolutely a hobby of mine. I’m a lot more proud of many other things I have going on in my life so even if I nitpick at this result, it’s not going to bring me down.
+1 to that for me, and probably most people on this thread I'm guessing. This is a hobby I migrated to because I enjoy it and it brings good health, both physical and mental. With or without racing, I hope to continue it the rest of my life!
Andres: Nice race report. I was looking at your strava andyour long runs, as I was wondering (like Mikkey suggested) if there were enough in the longer range. There certainly were, but one thing that stood out was the pace was almost always what I would call Pfitz-style fast, often in the 7:0X to 7:2X range. One cycle I tried doing several Pfitz-paced LR's, and they always ruined me for the following week+; just was worn out and could not execute on workouts. That was just me and my experience, but perhaps you had some cumulative deep fatigue going into Houston. Just a thought. The other thing that stands out is the nutrition aspect; based on what you said you had drink and gel-wise that could have contributed significantly to the bonk. In any case you've got the right attitude about it and I was just happy to see you running a whole cycle without that damn psoas injury popping up again! You've always been able to kill it at shorter stuff from 10k - halves and I hope you'll give those a shot.
2:52:16 (2018)
Mmmm Bop
Mikkey - (belated comment) - very interesting abut the Shockwave therapy and being able to run. I had heard that practices in my area required time in a boot when doing Shockwave, but that was a few years ago. [this is not meant as a criticism of your current practitioner, but rather an observation on how different medical providers have different protocols]. I'm glad it seems to be working!
Tbh, I had never heard of Shockwave therapy until I started googling heel spur treatment. I found this guy privately (getting a free PT appointment on the NHS takes forever) and he knows I’m registered for London Marathon and reckons I’ll be fine. He knows I’m building up gradually again and just told me to avoid steep uphills and stretching the Achilles (I’m also using gel heel inserts which is helping) The interesting thing is the price - he’s charging me £265 ($340?) for 3 sessions including initial assessment and £60 for any additional sessions. I also contacted a bigger company and they quoted me £1050 ($1300?) for 3 sessions! Needless to say that was a very short conversation. I’m seeing him again on Friday and will ask him if there are certain injuries that require time in a boot - he told me to carry on as normal. I’m going to play it by ear and even if I have only 10 good weeks training I think that should be enough (I hope!)
Andres - Thanks for the detailed RR! You’ve got the right attitude and if you prefer half training/racing then go for it! It’s the same with ultra runners, it’s not my scene, but big deal if they haven’t got a great 5k PR! (cough Cal cough )
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Mother of Cats
My brain droppings, for you to take or leave as you think appropriate to you:
1) harking back to an earlier discussion - where someone noted that your races didn't match your workouts. I've seen that one pop up many times before. And the answer has always been to slow down the workouts to match the current race times, rather than stick doggedly with those workouts and hope the races will match. You can train slower than you want to race, and it really won't hold you back much, if at all.
(we had a girl on my team run 2:42 recently and qualify for the trials - she was clearly capable of running those times, but since she likes to train with a large group, she ran her workouts a lot slower than one would expect. She did her track workouts with our pack of 2:55-3:05 runners, and her marathon pace workouts were generally in the 6:3x range. No huge volume either. Running your workouts a hair "too slow" won't keep you from your potential; running them just a bit too fast will, since running too fast means that you train the wrong systems and also dig a slight but meaningful fatigue hole.)
2) nine runs in 19-21 range seems like too many to me - I"m not sure what you got from those last 4 or 5 of those runs, other than fatigue.
3) I understand that you had long runs that you felt fantastic on, but then race day didn't match up. In my experience, that goes to the taper (I know we all disagree on how important taper is). If you feel great on your long runs, and then don't have it on race day, the answer sometimes is to make the week before your marathon look more like the week before your best long run.
4) when I look at your HR on race day, I see a stable, steady HR even as the runner fades (HR dropping slightly in the latter miles). This mimics what I saw in my own HR data at Richmond, and have seen with several others. To me, that HR/pace profile on a flat course indicates mildly overshooting what one was ready to to run on that day (which is what I did at Richmond). So you fade and struggle, but it's not an all out blow up (which would have a plummeting HR) or a struggle due to bad hydration (which would have a skyrocking HR while the pace crashed). The HR/pace profiles for a well executed marathon, in my experience, starts a bit under pace and average, builds and holds, and then the HR really starts to climb while the pace remains steady after 20. So one way or the other, whether due to taper or training, you weren't quite ready to run what you wanted to run. I don't think you were that far off, and I agree that 6:35s might have been the way to go. I think the question that needs to be answered is why weren't you where you wanted to be. My personal opinion (worth what you paid for it) is that it was a combination of training just a bit too much and accumulating fatigue (and mostly that), but that the taper is worth looking into as well.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Stotan Disciple
On Hobby joggers.
A sport is technically defined as something that requires physical exertion and typically includes a degree of competition. A hobby (ultra-running\golf\painting) is something someone does for fun, for the challenge, or for some other reason, and usually they do it deliberately in their free time. A sport can be a hobby, it just depends on why the person is doing it.
If its a hobby (CASE CLOSED) be happy with the results its like darts, throw shit at the wall, see if it sticks, don't over analyze or put too much thought into it, its all for fun right? The cool thing about your hobby is you don't look like your HS best friend with the big belly whose hobby is golf.
So there is that.
Additional definitions
<section>
hobby is an activity that one enjoys doing in one's spare time while sport is (countable) any activity that uses physical exertion or skills competitively under a set of rules that is not based on aesthetics.
Thinking should be done first, before training begins.
wolvmar: thanks for the reassurance, i have been running 15 - 20 mile weeks since my last marathon, took a break over holidays. Ah didn't realize log was private, it is public now.
How many 5Ks & 10Ks have you run? "Leave until after.." So why not use a 5K/10k as a gauge leading up to April 26??
Nimmals: not many 5k races, I have been working on long distances and racking up miles. Haven't focused on short distance PRs but I know I could get to a sub 7 min mile for 5k if I worked at it. Not using that for gauge because I know it is not my best effort.
Thanks for the welcome!
I know I'm faster.
Mile 6:03, HM: 1:50:56, M: 4:01:54
Next Race: NJ Marathon 4/26, Goal: 3:39:00
On Hobby joggers. A sport is technically defined as something that requires physical exertion and typically includes a degree of competition. A hobby (ultra-running\golf\painting) is something someone does for fun, for the challenge, or for some other reason, and usually they do it deliberately in their free time. A sport can be a hobby, it just depends on why the person is doing it. If its a hobby (CASE CLOSED) be happy with the results its like darts, throw shit at the wall, see if it sticks, don't over analyze or put too much thought into it, its all for fun right? The cool thing about your hobby is you don't look like your HS best friend with the big belly whose hobby is golf. So there is that. Additional definitions
Hey, wait... You are not a hobby jogger? You doing sport? Wow! Up until that point I was actually taking you seriously... My goodness... Great ego Nimmals - you are one very humble person...
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
... I always encourage my athletes to do shorter races. I ran for 5 and a half years before I ever did a marathon and I won my first marathon and they first thing I uttered to my GF was this is the stupidest thing I have ever done. I still think they're the stupidest races. (IMHO) The historical figure behind the marathon origin died after, poor Pheidippides... I think ultra runners are dumb numb unfulfilled people that's my opinion. (IMHO) When I meet most ultra runners on long island I'm unimpressed I see a fool who has lost their way and is trying to use races to define themselves. (IMHO) I'm like "you can't even run a good 5k?? Why do you want to run a 100 miles?" (IMHO) My training week has more mileage than yours and I'd never race 50 miles. (IMHO) We are a half assed culture and tolerate half assed results. (IMHO) Whenever I state my opinions everyone goes into attack mode is that because it hits home? If it doesn't speak to you or what you do why be offended? My idea is not to offend but to provoke thought if we put the same effort of thought into running as we do in our careers and education you will see incremental success. “We make of ourselves what we may make . . . the solution . . . to our problems lies within us . . . the rewards are in direct proportion as we are prepared to learn: to think: to act” Cerutty 1967
...
I always encourage my athletes to do shorter races. I ran for 5 and a half years before I ever did a marathon and I won my first marathon and they first thing I uttered to my GF was this is the stupidest thing I have ever done.
Whenever I state my opinions everyone goes into attack mode is that because it hits home? If it doesn't speak to you or what you do why be offended? My idea is not to offend but to provoke thought if we put the same effort of thought into running as we do in our careers and education you will see incremental success.
“We make of ourselves what we may make .
. . the solution . . . to our problems lies within us . . .
the rewards are in direct proportion as we are prepared
to learn: to think: to act” Cerutty 1967
I wanted to comment on it, but then decided not to... It's like arguing with my 5 years old - you love him, but there is no point to bring the point - it just different worlds. This post ^^^ is just one BIZARRO world I will tell you. Totally misses intelligence/reasons and commenting on it just makes no sense. Wow, Nimmals, are you on drugs today?
And you really can't be that unintelligent to miss the most simple of points. So I'm going to go with you're just going to stay pretending you don't understand anything I say. Everything I type is stupid and senseless while you're the standard bearer of intelligence.
I'm fine with that but if you ever use that brilliant brain of yours that knows everything and think, really think like a 5 year old simple and logical your running will take a turn for the better.
Here is another stupid thought, Maybe when I can no longer PR I'll run ultras to make myself look cool and relevant.
You running a hundred miles in a race is absolutely amazing. I on the other hand prefer to do it over a week, to each his own brother you call me crazy I call you stupid.. seems like were talking in circles I vote for Case Closed.
And you really can't be that unintelligent to miss the most simple of points. So I'm going to go with you're just going to stay pretending you don't understand anything I say. Everything I type is stupid and senseless while you're the standard bearer of intelligence. I'm fine with that but if you ever use that brilliant brain of yours that knows everything and think, really think like a 5 year old simple and logical your running will take a turn for the better. Here is another stupid thought, Maybe when I can no longer PR I'll run ultras to make myself look cool and relevant. You running a hundred miles in a race is absolutely amazing. I on the other hand prefer to do it over a week, to each his own brother you call me crazy I call you stupid.. seems like were talking in circles I vote for Case Closed.
You can close your case any number of times you want, btw...
But that is what I call talking to a 5 years old - how I can explain to 5 years old what it feels like to be a dad? I can't. Only after my son becomes one, we can relate. The same about ultra-races - how I explain it to you, oh my fastest of the fastest, wisest of the wisest, sportsman of the sportsmen - what running ultra distances is about (I warn you - it's not a simple answer)? I can't. Because I just cannot relate. Calling ultra runners "unfulfilled people"? Man... I pity you, I really am. And just for the record - I ran my first 100K the same year I PR-ed in a marathon with a Moose Mug time. Some of us can embrace both worlds and avoid stupid unreasonable judging...
Btw, if you are so passionate about what you are saying - why in the world you are running marathons, which you call the stupidest thing in the world? Run your awesome fast 5Ks and 1 mile and be happy with it - don't torture your short-distanced passionate nature...
Most the people I know run 100s or longer because it brings them joy or they love the challenge. They do not care how it makes them look or what other people think. That is why even the top runners would stop and back track on the course to help a fellow injured runner ... they are not so self centered or selfish. Please do not project your understanding of the world onto another group of people.
Long dead ... But my stench lingers !
Im not judging I have opinions. I just like to race no matter the distance but my heart is in the mile.
Man do whatever you want, please run a 100 miles or 100k. I know when you suppress your opinions and conform you experience frustration, unhappiness, failed relationships, then you turn elsewhere for fulfillment vaping e-cigs, alcohol and drug abuse, ultra running. These are often the consequences of suppressing who you are and what you really want to be.The bottom line is this, be who you really are and live the life you love while respecting others and being responsible.
Ill still think its stupid but i have that right too just like you to not suppress. I said its an opinion not an attack.
In a 5k a runner is in distress and a fellow competitor will look over and think - "I hope that guy is OK" ... "I hope someone helps him". In an ultra if a fellow competitor is in distress a runner will stop and see what he can do to help him.
Once you are our of college - If your primary source of income is not from running races ... You are a hobby jogger.
Although some hobby joggers are a lot faster than others.
Most ultra-runners I know run because it brings them joy.
Most faster Mile to Marathon runners I know run because of their ego ... it brings them praise. When these runners no longer are getting praise or glory they quit running. They seem to run for others approval.
Just my opinion
You're missing the point no one is stupid I'm just having fun with Ivan Draggo.
Disclosure"No human beings were harmed in the making of this posting "this is not real life this is a message board, I promise you no one is being harmed'