Forums >Racing>2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber
Mother of Cats
No one said shit, cause they didn't work. VF is the first shoe that works.
So...I'm curious. How do you know the shoes listed above "didn't work?"
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Problem Child
Vaporfly - I'm still running in the 4%. I never upgraded to the Next, but I'm wondering whether I should be upgrading to this AlphaFly (if legal) for my Boston attempt. I'm thinking no. Curious what others will do for their spring races.
Why would you enter a race attempting for a goal you think is almost out of reach right now, and not set yourself up for the best possibility for success? Pride? Does getting your Moose Mug depend on the shoe you wear? You going to tell people you ran your PR in spring shoes or jsut say "yeah I broke 2:40 at CIM in 2020." ? You're not pro. Others will be wearing them. It's another downhill course. No different wearing those shoes than running a revel. I don't think I'll buy them strictly because I believe I could gain more from working on a LOT of things, or buying a coach, than a shoe would give me in the long run.
DPS Baseball? You're worried about shoes and you're watching a sport where people steal signals and keep their World Series chapmionship? Barry Bonds has the home run record and his head GREW like three sizes as a 30+ year old man. Come on. Baseball is FILLED with cheaters. Even the little league world series has had teams recruiting kids and changing their birthdays so they could win. MUCH worse than having a pair of shoes. Baseball is one of the sports I HATE because the fans claim it's "america's greatest past time" and such a "pure" sport then want to ignore every single cheater every time it happens. And yeah....Carl Lewis should be stripped of all of his medals if he tested positive for the same things Ben was taking. zero tolerance means zero tolerance.
Nimmals WArdian has a 2:34 marathon. How would that not qualify for an age group of 3:09?
EDIT: Oh...Cowtown. Keen is running that 50k. 6:04/mi...FOR 31 MILES!!!!!!
Didn't get a job I interviewed for. After I said "I really wanted this job" I was told I should have made that more obvious. I thought making the interview last an extra 30 minutes, along with accepting an interview for a job I didn't apply for, and interviewing in the same building I work in was a good indicator for wanting a new job. I guess I should end it with the juvenile (like 16 year old) "yeah I'D REALLY like to get this job." I told her you miss every shot you don't take.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Well I didn't try them, but I think they would have caught on if they did.
3 months til Masters
Brew- my point is I don't really follow baseball...I follow pro running like many people follow baseball. I go to an occasional twins game and follow it by what i hear for a few min on sports radio. I'm saying i have followed this shoe thing in the same way baseball fans have followed the astros scandal.
I don't oppose the new shoes...just want the field to be level and every shoe used to be in the open. Not this prototype stuff in things like the Olympics. I think the rules set are about as good as could have been done.
2023 Goals
Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18
10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)
5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)
Sub 1:16 Half Marathon City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)
Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)
2024 Goals
Sub 2:37 Marathon
Sub 1:15 Half
Sub 34 10k
Sub 16 5k
Also - here's a list of the top trials contenders in the US (full disclosure - I don't track the men's as closely as the women's - I also don't think there's as much depth on the men's side)i
Male:
Jared Ward
Scott Fauble
Galen Rupp
Female:
Amy Cragg
Sara Hall
Kellyn Taylor
Des Linden
Stephanie Bruce
Jordan Hasay
Aliphine Tuliamuk
Emma Bates
Molly Huddle
I've underlined the ones sponsored by Nike, who will presumably be wearing the VF. The others are sponsored by other shoe companies (Asics, Hoka One One, Saucony, Brooks). I think Emma Bates is the only athlete listed who has run at some point in VFs, but is now sponsored by someone other than Nike. Worth noting that she ran faster after being sponsored by Asics than she did than when unsponsored in the VFs.
Judging from the list above, it does not look like wearing VFs is essential to being a top trials contender in the US.
I don't think it really matters if you upgrade or not. I wonder if the difference will be that significant. I haven't really asked, but has anyone heard people saying that they run way faster in the Next over the 4? I know they made some changes, and people may like the changes better, but haven't heard that they're a leap forward as far as pace goes. Maybe I'm totally wrong on that though.
Either way, I totally expect you to meet your goal, even in the 4%'s (assuming you get good weather). You're a smart enough marathoner to really take advantage of Boston, even more so now that this is your second go at it. And you've already proven that the 4%'s work well for you. I'd stick with what's not broken.
Upcoming races: Boston
I think this is a very good assessment. Also agree the men's feild while good is not as deep as the women's.
Also - here's a list of the top trials contenders in the US (full disclosure - I don't track the men's as closely as the women's - I also don't think there's as much depth on the men's side)i Male: Jared Ward Scott Fauble Galen Rupp Female: Amy Cragg Sara Hall Kellyn Taylor Des Linden Stephanie Bruce Jordan Hasay Aliphine Tuliamuk Emma Bates Molly Huddle I've underlined the ones sponsored by Nike, who will presumably be wearing the VF. The others are sponsored by other shoe companies (Asics, Hoka One One, Saucony, Brooks). I think Emma Bates is the only athlete listed who has run at some point in VFs, but is now sponsored by someone other than Nike. Worth noting that she ran faster after being sponsored by Asics than she did than when unsponsored in the VFs. Judging from the list above, it does not look like wearing VFs is essential to being a top trials contender in the US.
Wow... That shoe issue... I never thought it would get that serious and have that significance. Now I am really tempted to run some of the marathons in Adios 4 (yes DW, I am stocking up on them too I know they are really good for racing, my only concern if I could use them for MLRs for my training without much hurting the legs?)
Anyway - I would like to see for myself how running in different shoes (Adios and VF) would impact my racing time. I guess I could start by running some MP workouts in different shoes? I should have plenty of chances for that.
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Stotan Disciple
Correction those WR s were 2003 & 2007 respectively.
Tergat signed with Nike shortly after setting WR in Fila's.
Ronaldo dacosta also set WR in Carbon Fila and Da Silva wore Carbon Filas too.
Brew that's Keen's goal 6:04 pace??
Thinking should be done first, before training begins.
DPS I disagree. A prototype should be exclusive to the athletes on the team. Competition shouldn't get what the team gets. It is why we have a team. The level field is the 26.2 mile long course. If you want level they all better have the same drink mix. Jared might not wear the Next %. He'll wear the Saucony that probably isn't released to the public yet. Why? Well because they save the best stuff for their team and don't want the competition wearing it. You really think he'll wear the Kinerva 11 in the trials? Maybe the Fastwitch or the A9.
Being a top contender in a sport isn't always about gear.
Nimmals No hte 6:04 is the pace for the record according to an online calculator. Keen is probably aiming for a 6:45/mi average at Cowtown in a few weeks. I'm 95% sure he's signed up for the 50k and I told him to just keep running Marathon Pace through the next 5 miles instead of stopping to get his medal. He's trying to go sub 3 and he will probably do it easier than I did if he doesn't get sick.
pie man
*Emma Bates has only run two marathons, so a comparison between times has a lot more factors than just shoes.
11:11 3,000 (recent)
Brew- To me the shoe thing with prototypes in the 2016 marathon trials for example is like like one team bringing aluminum bats to a MLB game or corked bats. I think there was a significant difference on the pro level and you shouldn't miss the Olympics because Nike didn't want to sign you or you with them (see goucher). I think there need to be limits and now there are. I think they did a good job if not a bit late. Knowing the 4 month rule will help level things in a few years when everyone has their own version. I think there needs to be equipment rules as there are in every sport from football to swimming to running. By keeping as a wild wild west opens the doors to all sorts of tom foolery in shoes and spikes that you just can't in a sport have fractions of a second and millimeters.
Oh, absolutely. But...if she had run the first race in Asics, and then run the second in VFs, everyone would be pointing to the VFs as the clear reason for improvement.
That's my broader point with all these examples. Not that the examples I pick are probative, but that you can cherry pick examples to support one conclusion or the other. You can play that game in support of the VF being a ridiculous game-changer-so-far-ahead-of-everyone-else-it's-not-fair, or in the other direction..World records are set and races won in the VF? Huge tumult. World records set and races won in the Takumi Sen? Crickets.
Calbears - I regularly use the Adios 4 for my long runs, including the 21 with 7 at MP that I did two weeks ago, and will do again this Saturday. It held up well, and I'd have no qualms using it for a marathon - I used to race marathons in the Adios 2 before the VF came out. I do like the VF's cushioning and ride a bit more, which gives it the edge.
I like the no prototypes rule - I think 4 months is a bit long for a shoe to be on the market, but I think the idea (among others) is that it gives World Athletics lead time to review a shoe before races are won in it.
That's my broader point with all these examples. Not that the examples I pick are probative, but that you can cherry pick examples to support one conclusion or the other. You can play that game in support of the VF being a ridiculous game-changer-so-far-ahead-of-everyone-else-it's-not-fair, or in the other direction..
I just don't think that's what's happening here though--I don't think anyone (credibly) is picking one or two examples and saying that the Vaporfly's are a game changer. There appears to be tons of data to back up the fact that they are far ahead of all other marathon shoes currently on the market, for elites down to hobby joggers. I'm struggling to see how you can make an argument that they are not a game changer. I'd bet a lot of money that all else being equal, a runner in VF beats the theoretically equal runner wearing ANY other shoe in a marathon. Every time. Saying all that, I think they're totally fair. In my mind, they seem to have met the rules in the past, and they clearly meet the new rules. Hopefully other companies catch up.
Cal - I've worn the Adios 4's for 90% of my mileage the past 4 months or so. They're great. Fast stuff, slow stuff, long, short. I highly recommend them. But the VF's are in a totally different league. They're super fast, but can be awkward for anything not racing. I also don't find them to be all that comfortable. I'd give them a shot. You and Mikkey, when it comes closer to, need to set down some rules on what shoe is or isn't allowed.
If you had to guess, what percent of non-sponsored runners at the trials will be wearing VFs?