Heart Rate Math Question (Read 2728 times)


Why is it sideways?

    To be fair you did say, "What's hard about running easy is not knowing what it feels like to run easy."  I think just devin and I were raising a legitimate challenge to this assertion.  That's when we got into the "red" thing.  It is possible that you are right, but it is not self-evident.  

     

    If your best argument for the value of MAF as a training system is contingent upon the doubtfulness of the color red, then... I don't know how to respond. I doubt my own views on training much more than I doubt my ability to discern the color red.

     

    MTA: why am I insisting on this point? Because I think the following analogy holds: runner : effort :: artist : paint. Training, racing--these are arts, and though the results are often given in numbers, the medium of a runner's work is effort. Sure, it takes knowledge and experience to become skilled at these tasks. But you teach running the same way you teach painting. Which is to say: you struggle, you struggle, you try, you fail, you learn, you surprise yourself, you chase the faint glimpses of beauty... that's it.

     

    Shit, maybe I am a closet zen master after all.

    AmoresPerros


    Options,Account, Forums

      Poor color blind runners.

      It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

        Poor color blind runners.

        Stop patronizing me

        xor


          "patronize" has always been one of those weird English words to me because it has very divergent multiple meanings.

           

          Ok HappyFeet, I will stop shopping at your store.

           

          JPF


            If your best argument for the value of MAF as a training system is contingent upon the doubtfulness of the color red, then... I don't know how to respond. I doubt my own views on training much more than I doubt my ability to discern the color red.

             

            Did I advocate MAF as a training system?  (I think I referred to at least parts of it as "gobbly-goop" somewhere up thread.)  And I think you're being purposefully obtuse about the significance of the color spectrum analogy to your assertion that "easy" effort is, well, easy to discern.  *You're* the one that tried to be clever with the whole "This is like saying it takes practice and experience to see the color red." gambit.  And that got turned around on you because it *does* take practice and experience to label colors on the color spectrum.  "Easy" running is just a label that runners and coaches use to describe a certain level of effort.  There is no reason to believe that it is immediately self-evident to someone who has not run before just like "red" (presumably) would be initially challenging to a blind person who one day begins to see. 

             

            (Sorry to everyone.  I know I should allow this thread to de-escalate, but it annoys me when people get "pissed off" by legitimate disagreements/discussions.)


            The King of Beasts

              Because I think the following analogy holds: runner : effort :: artist : paint. Training, racing--these are arts, and though the results are often given in numbers, the medium of a runner's work is effort. Sure, it takes knowledge and experience to become skilled at these tasks. But you teach running the same way you teach painting. Which is to say: you struggle, you struggle, you try, you fail, you learn, you surprise yourself, you chase the faint glimpses of beauty... that's it.

               

               

               

              as far as I know- that is it.

              "As a dreamer of dreams and a travelin' man I have chalked up many a mile. Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, And I've learned much from both of their styles." ~ Jimmy Buffett

               

              "I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."”

                as far as I know- that is it.

                Just makes me want to get out there and race a race for all I'm worth. Dying to. 

                "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

                Slo


                  It's easy...It's all relative. Was it easy easy or moderatly easy?

                   

                  When I got back into Tri's I got sucked into all the gadgetry and heart rate zones and bike fits and newton shoes. We didn't have all that stuff in the mid 80's.

                   

                  I finally walked away from all that crap and today I see red as red. I also got faster. Most of my runs today are timed by looking at glowing numbers on the microwave as I head out the door and when I get home. A few times I throw on the Ironman timex and take splits as I pass landmarks that I've measured. I got Jeff's arguments. But yours has confirmed my notion that it's over complicating a very simple process.

                   

                  If your not on a treadmill, trying to keep your heart rate in a particular zone is a very daunting task. It's much easier to learn what easy feels like. (In my opinion)


                  Why is it sideways?

                    Hey JPF, a couple things.

                     

                    First, I get pissed off on the internet way too often. It's my fault when that happens.

                     

                    Second, I understand what you are saying about learning how to perceive colors. It is not easy to get the effort exactly right, and as we run, we learn to discriminate finer shades of effort. Just as a painter learns how to see better and more fully by practicing his craft. Beginners are doomed to be beginners, and neither MAF nor you nor me nor a heart rate monitor will change that. I'd rather see them begin to practice running by feel from the get go--and I understand that MAF or using a HRM is a good way to teach it. I want to say to new runners: you CAN distinguish between efforts! Even if it is hard or counter-intuitive from a quantitative standpoint.

                     

                    Third, I forget what #3 was, but good arguments always come in threes.

                    JPF


                      Hey JPF, a couple things.

                       

                      First, I get pissed off on the internet way too often. It's my fault when that happens.

                       

                      Second, I understand what you are saying about learning how to perceive colors. It is not easy to get the effort exactly right, and as we run, we learn to discriminate finer shades of effort. Just as a painter learns how to see better and more fully by practicing his craft. Beginners are doomed to be beginners, and neither MAF nor you nor me nor a heart rate monitor will change that. I'd rather see them begin to practice running by feel from the get go--and I understand that MAF or using a HRM is a good way to teach it. I want to say to new runners: you CAN distinguish between efforts! Even if it is hard or counter-intuitive from a quantitative standpoint.

                       

                      Third, I forget what #3 was, but good arguments always come in threes.

                       

                      Internet:  Serious Business.

                       

                      But seriously, good points.  I think you're probably right about "doomed to be a beginner," but it would be nice to offer people a bone so that they don't burn out or get too frustrated.  I just restarted a few months ago after seven years away from running and I was pretty lost for the first couple of weeks.  I could "remember" my old paces, but was not in anything close to the shape I needed to be in to run them.  (Nor am I now.)  I think that affects my viewpoint on this more than it should. 

                       

                      I think we agree on 99.9% of this.  We're really just arguing about the argument, which is what both of us do as a matter of training. (I'm a lawyer.)  But I think everyone else is probably not so amused, so we should probably cool it!


                      Why is it sideways?

                        I just restarted a few months ago after seven years away from running and I was pretty lost for the first couple of weeks.  I could "remember" my old paces, but was not in anything close to the shape I needed to be in to run them.  (Nor am I now.)  I think that affects my viewpoint on this more than it should. 

                         

                        I think we agree on 99.9% of this.  We're really just arguing about the argument, which is what both of us do as a matter of training. (I'm a lawyer.)  But I think everyone else is probably not so amused, so we should probably cool it!

                         

                        They're eating this up, brother. You think they're on here to actually learn about running? Ha.

                         

                        Comebacks are hard. I've done it myself. You've got this old brain that's got its old habits sitting in a body that ain't the same as it used to be. That brain is like wtf body this shouldn't be hard. And body's like wtf brain get off my back. A HRM, like a lawyer, can be a good resource to turn to in order to mediate the dispute. Necessary evil and all that.


                        Prince of Fatness

                          They're eating this up, brother.

                           

                          Maybe a little, heh.

                           

                          But you ain't shittin' about the comeback being hard.  JPF, your log says you're doing a good job of getting out the door on a consistent basis.  That's a lot of the battle right there (I am coming off of an injury time out myself).  Just keep building on that and you will get there.

                          Not at it at all. 

                             

                            I think we agree on 99.9% of this.  We're really just arguing about the argument, which is what both of us do as a matter of training. (I'm a lawyer.)  But I think everyone else is probably not so amused, so we should probably cool it!

                             

                            Objection counselor, I'm very amused.

                             

                            The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                             

                            2014 Goals:

                             

                            Stay healthy

                            Enjoy life

                             

                              Like this thread, particularly like the comment.........."you struggle, you struggle, you try, you fail, you learn, you surprise yourself, you chase the faint glimpses of beauty... that's it."

                               

                               

                              I am still a beginner, and am still having issues with "effort".  There are 2 threads I am trying to reconcile, this one, and a recent one on long runs. Hope I am not taking this out of context, but am really interested in the topic.  

                               

                              •  In the LR thread, Nobby discussed the issue with running at a pace less than 9 minutes per mile.  He mentioned the center of gravity in relation to the point of impact is different than if you are running at a much faster pace.  This causes more impact, and more potential for adverse issues with the longer long runs.  This is why having a time limit of 3 hours is better than having a given distance of 20 miles.  I get this part, but the mileage difference at the 3 hour mark at 10 minute pace and 20 miles at a faster pace is settle (1 or 2 miles), but becomes more of an issue if you are running on time alone of 2 or 2 1/2 hours.   

                               

                              • I get it with Mark Allen.  His "slow pace"of 8:15 still allowed significant mileage at the 2 to 3 hour mark.  I think everyone would agree that going out and training at a 5 minute pace for every mile isn't the answer, and he needed more aerobic base.  How about the slow runners and/or people who try to get 4 possibly 5 days in instead of the 6+ days or twice daily running?  Is there a "too slow."  If you run at a slightly faster pace, but still well below your lactate threshold, there is slightly more miles, but potentially more aerobic stress and greater benefit.   If a beginner changes from 10 minute to a 9 1/2 minute pace, finishes a 2 hour run (therefore completed 12.6 instead of 12 miles) is there additional benefit or not?  I slowed my pace down, but am struggling with my stride.  I feel like there is less impact if I go faster.  Is there a cycling effect, where it is difficult to go slow, and it becomes easier once you have a little speed to keep the momentum going?

                               

                              • As far as the improvement in the pace, Burnt Toast, have to guess that no matter how you ran, after weekly miles of 20 to 60 mpw over 15 months, and a cumulative few thousand miles, I not surprised to see your change in pace.  
                              • I will admit I am a "purest," meaning I believe that there is an answer, maybe just not known at this time.  

                              2018 Goals:

                              Get Lucky Half  1:47:59

                              Grandmas Marathon

                              Fall Marathon - Twin Cities??

                                As far as the MAF training goes, it is not about running slow, but getting faster and faster at the same aerobic heart rate.

                                 

                                AKTrail replied: If you don't get faster by capping the HR at which you run or walk, then it is about running or hiking slowly. Most HR training books that I've used suggest NOT using HRM for anaerobic work because their responses are slowed. But I do base training most of the time anyway (up to 1-hr race effort). 

                                 

                                Since I've been using a "structured" approach to running, I've never run by pace. It's next to useless on trails, on hills, in wind, and on snow. So I've never experienced the stresses you talk about. But when the snow goes out and / or I run flatter trails, I do run faster - at the same effort / HR / breathing intensity.

                                 

                                In reading Allen's article (again), it looks like he's saying that his HRmax is about 190 and his MAF is 155 or about 81%. I wouldn't quarrel with the technique if that's what my numbers were. (I also remembered that there were a lot of questions asked there that never got answered.)  But since I'm a bunch of years older and not conveniently where I could get (or afford) a test, I'm limited to a 126 MAF. Also the fudge factors seem to vary by article. This is where it loses credibility. Regular HR training provides some easy mechanisms to use to estimate where you should be - like breathing intensity. It's intuitive.

                                 On a personal basis, the only thing that has ever proven anything to me is a full experiment through all phases of a particular type of training. Experience. Otherwise, it's all an intellectual exercise. A merry go round of contradictory studies and methods and opinion. It would be arrogant and short-sighted of me to suggest that the way I train should be the way everyone else trains. I can say with complete confidence that if an athlete is breaking down physically or mentally, then adjustments in training, diet, or one's life have to be made that reduce overall stress. I have found that the principles I've learned in MAF training, especially the MAF test, are the best way for me to monitor the state of my aerobic system and avoid getting to the breakdown point. 
                                AKTrail replied: Yep, and for many of us more traditional training has provided the running improvements and stress relief.

                                Chemical, mental, and physical serenity now.Cool

                                 

                                Peace Smile

                                 

                                --Jimmy

                                 

                                Something I wanted to add but not sure where, since the subject did come up, is that I view normal HR training zones like colors of a spectrum. It's a gradient, but certain zones get called different things (e.g. easy, blue)  but where they differentiate from say, "general aerobic" or purple may be a bit fuzzy.

                                 

                                I just run by breathing intensity / talk test.  (also now sure how to get rid of some of the blocks above)

                                 

                                PS: For perspective, my 1-hr race pace is around 12min/mi on rolling hills trails. "Easy" training run on something like that is probably around 15-18min/mi. Put bigger mountains in there and it gets slower. Cap my HR at 126bpm, and I probably would not be able to hike any local mountains at a reasonable speed where I wouldn't freeze or be carried off my mosquitoes.

                                "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog