The COVID-19 Wild West Thread (Read 601 times)

    There's a simple way to avoid sucking in everyone else's respirations in a race; be in front the whole way.

    60-64 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying

    Mikkey


    Mmmm Bop

       

      Okay, easy, don't have that situation. You can easily have self service volunteer stations in almost every race distance, including marathons (yeah, it's nice having my cup handed to me, but it's not needed). This shaming of runners for wanting to run and putting volunteers at risk is just a complete strawman with no scientific backing generally around the risk they are facing. Study after study after study demonstrates that there is almost no risk of outdoor transmission, especially from someone just passing through. At this point, we know the virus is much more transmissable a) indoors and b) when facing exposure for longer periods of time. That is not occuring at an aid station.

       

      I follow the rule of "follow the science." You should too.

       

      Some folk have run marathons and not needed a cup handed to them at all during the race.  And actually lived to tell the tale!

      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

      Half Crazy K 2.0


        My guess with the larger races is it is less about the actual race and more about having lots of people travel to an area. If NY was to hold the marathon, how do you enforce the 2 week quarantoinie for certain states? If there's travel involved, now you have hotels, restaurants, transportation, etc as possible places people can be exposed.

          little bit back to the topic at hand given this website, at this point it's ridiculous we don't have more outdoor races. How much more evidence do we need of little to zero risk of transmission outdoors? This is no longer about the science, it's about politics, which sadly everything has become these days, just like wearing a damn mask.

           

          It doesn't seem ridiculous to me given how rapidly conditions are changing and how much planning goes into most races far in advance. Like I can imagine having smallish outdoor races safely right now but I can also imagine all the extra work and planning and effort would take. As a former race director I can see why very few people would want to take that on with no way to gauge how many people would actually show up. For larger races it just gets harder. The race itself is only part of it. Most races involve a lot of indoor activity that would have to be managed differently. My running club cancelled the October marathon we host which is the primary fund raiser for the club that supports all kinds of worthwhile things like a youth team and scholarships. It sucks but I get it and I'm glad I wasn't the race director or part of the committee that had to make the call months in advance. Things could be fine in October or we could be in lockdown again.

           

          Speaking of the 2009 h1n1 outbreak and races, I'm 99% sure I caught it at the 2009 new bedford half marathon.

           

          Interesting enough it was Trent who, when I reported feeling feverish the morning two days after the race, forecasted what my next couple of weeks would be like. He said something like, "mikey I spent all weekend seeing people with this new nasty strain of flu that's going around. you should go to your doc right now and get prescribed tamiflu." And of course I didn't do that and within hours I was on my back with a 104 fever and delirious for the next several days. There is a lot that's different between h1n1 and covid, and anecdote is not data--mostly my story is just a sad commentary on how long some of us have been fucking around on this dumb website.

          Runners run

          JMac11


          RIP Milkman

            I definitely think there would need to be adjustments. Expos should be outdoors or not even held at all. You just have a packet pickup where people wear masks and stand 6 feet apart, or better yet, just mailed to you. We all pay a little bit more because the expo isn't happening (not sure how much races make from those things, but I assume it more than covers the cost of renting out a forum).

             

            Again, not saying races like Boston should go on exactly as they always did (the crowding at that expo is horrendous), but there's a middle ground here. The races themselves do not pose any real risk. We can manage through the rest of the activities.

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

             

            Half Crazy K 2.0


              I definitely think there would need to be adjustments. Expos should be outdoors or not even held at all. You just have a packet pickup where people wear masks and stand 6 feet apart, or better yet, just mailed to you. We all pay a little bit more because the expo isn't happening (not sure how much races make from those things, but I assume it more than covers the cost of renting out a forum).

               

              Again, not saying races like Boston should go on exactly as they always did (the crowding at that expo is horrendous), but there's a middle ground here. The races themselves do not pose any real risk. We can manage through the rest of the activities.

               

              To me, all the actual race activities can be managed. It's the other stuff--travel, hotesl, restaurants, public transportation, ride share, etc that out of towners will need if they travel for a race. Using NY, NJ and CT are examples since they have a long list of states where visitors need to self quarantine for 2 weeks, does this become the race's responsibility to make sure travelers arrive 2 weeks early?

               

              We've just started having races near me in Maryland. There was a 250 person limit. The start times were spread out over 2 hours. Instead of volunteers, the local running store's race management group staffed anything that normally would be volunteer based (think turn around, water stop, etc).

               

              I think local races can happen. Not sure about the large ones that rely on out of towners.

              onemile


                Chicago is currently requiring anyone arriving from 15 states to quarantine for 14 days.

                rlopez


                   

                  Okay, easy, don't have that situation. You can easily have self service volunteer stations in almost every race distance, including marathons (yeah, it's nice having my cup handed to me, but it's not needed). This shaming of runners for wanting to run and putting volunteers at risk is just a complete strawman with no scientific backing generally around the risk they are facing. Study after study after study demonstrates that there is almost no risk of outdoor transmission, especially from someone just passing through. At this point, we know the virus is much more transmissable a) indoors and b) when facing exposure for longer periods of time. That is not occuring at an aid station.

                   

                  I follow the rule of "follow the science." You should too.

                   

                  Uh. Dude. For one, I didn't "shame" you, stop being dramatic.

                  For two, ain't a strawman. It's a real thing. I keep hearing runners discuss this always and ONLY in terms of themselves. It is worth pondering, for at least a few minutes, other people.

                   

                  I follow science too. Since you brought up everyone's favorite "strawman" term, if you want a bs tactic from high school debate, wagging your finger that I should follow science (implication being that I do not) because I said you should think about volunteers... that would be such a tactic.

                    Chicago is currently requiring anyone arriving from 15 states to quarantine for 14 days.

                     

                    How have they not cancelled yet.

                    Dave

                    rlopez


                      I definitely think there would need to be adjustments. Expos should be outdoors or not even held at all. You just have a packet pickup where people wear masks and stand 6 feet apart, or better yet, just mailed to you. We all pay a little bit more because the expo isn't happening (not sure how much races make from those things, but I assume it more than covers the cost of renting out a forum).

                       

                      Again, not saying races like Boston should go on exactly as they always did (the crowding at that expo is horrendous), but there's a middle ground here. The races themselves do not pose any real risk. We can manage through the rest of the activities.

                       

                      Each one of these things that you propose (including self service-y aid stations) sound reasonable in isolation and may indeed be reasonable, but it is unclear how many runners would sign up for a race w/ far less support. Expos are interesting because for some races, they are a "we do this because we feel we have to" thing, and for others, they are fairly significant revenue drivers. So some would be able to cancel this aspect no bigs, but others not so much. So yes, this then changes how much you need to charge runners to cover costs... but this already pokes a group of people that 1) might be nervous about returning, b) might be less inclined to return given that they get less and pay more (in some cases a lot more). Point being, for a race to be economically feasible, a lot needs to work out properly.

                       

                      Meanwhile, there are permit issues with state, local, and in the case of ultras in the sticks, sometimes federal authorities. I know, you'll just call this another strawman... but the RD controls a tiny amount of all of this and that matters.

                       

                      And as mikey noted, there's a lot of indoor activity that goes along w/ race prep. Way beyond an expo. Folks can mask up and social distance for much of this, but it is still something for the RD to figure out.

                       

                      And, yes, mikkey, some people have survived with nary a cup of water. I know my history too. But as an RD, this type of race would likely not attract many runners. So that's just a weird comment. Thanks for the addition to the discussion.

                      JMac11


                      RIP Milkman

                        No, the point about permits is fair, that's not something in your control.

                         

                        Regarding whether people are nervous to return, that may be the case. I do think you're viewing this from the ultra lens, which makes sense given your experience. I'm not saying all races should return, but your local 5K/10K/Half should be running when the weather cools down a bit in September, and I personally think medium-sized marathons should run as well, e.g. anything under 5K runners that generally attract locals anyway.

                         

                        Regarding volunteers, you did not say we should think about how they feel. You specifically said races are "risky" for the volunteers, which they are not. So no, you don't follow the science.

                        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                         

                        Running Problem


                        Problem Child

                          Brew as usual you throw me for a loop. Are people generally wearing masks now, or not? I did enjoy that video from that crazy Florida man today yelling at an older woman for asking him to wear a mask. But then again, Florida.

                           

                          State requires wearing a mask any time you're in public (but has zero enforcement or penalty), BUT it depends what part of the state you live in. Not so surprisingly, the county with the highest number of COVID 19 cases (and the one the Governor lives in so it's probably the only one he looks at when making the decision to lock down the entire state) has the lowest compliance percentage for wearing masks.

                          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                          VDOT 53.37 

                          5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                          rlopez


                             

                            Regarding volunteers, you did not say we should think about how they feel. You specifically said races are "risky" for the volunteers, which they are not. So no, you don't follow the science.

                             

                            I still say they are risky for volunteers, given the science... and especially the idea that the science is not so clear yet. But yes, in general, I do agree with the indoors/outdoors thing. You are right, I am viewing this through the ultra lens but also the medium-to-large marathon lens. Small races are interesting for a number of reasons, and many will return, but the idea that they have to cover costs does not change.

                             

                            Tomorrow, I have to start enforcing my county's mask ordinance in my store. I think it is absolutely the right thing, and my fellow employees have been wearing masks the whole time, but I am not looking forward to playing bouncer.

                            Half Crazy K 2.0


                              I think the issue with volunteers (or anyone assisting with a race) is that they have a possibility of many contacts, while the runner has far fewer. If I run a race, I may only have brief contact with someone at packet pick up, passing on the course and maybe a water stop. The people handling each of these could potentially have contact with every runner. While the risk is low outdoors, it's not zero. Depending how you do water stops, a volunteer/employee is within 6 feet of lots of unmasked people.

                               

                              A work around is require everyone to carry whatever it is they need. Will people do that? I'm not really convinced since I have yet to see people follow "walkers start in back".

                                I'm not saying all races should return, but your local 5K/10K/Half should be running when the weather cools down a bit in September, and I personally think medium-sized marathons should run as well, e.g. anything under 5K runners that generally attract locals anyway.

                                 

                                Thinking about the last race I ran....March 1. A 5k with "only" 1500 runners in New Haven. No f'in way could that be done safely without some radical change to the start.

                                 

                                And the changes become a problem. You have to find a goldilocks situation where you can extend the hours of your permit, extend which streets need to be blocked off, hire more officers, have the space (New Haven does not have the space). Extra waivers. More insurance. It just becomes not worth it to host.

                                 

                                Some of the summer series XC races around here are starting back. And I can see that. They draw like 50 runners on a Tuesday night in the park. You pay 2 bucks. No chip. XC start so you're all spread out across a field anyway. Not that many changes in procedure to make.

                                 

                                But a city road race of 5K people? Yikes.

                                 

                                 

                                I think I'm in the third row there, and it is impossibly tight. Like can't move, arms at your side, live with the smell for 10 minutes, feel the body odor of your competitors tight. That's 1500. I can't fathom 5,000 today.

                                Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and rogues
                                We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes