The COVID-19 Wild West Thread (Read 551 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    Good thing I don't need to and hadn't planned to go grocery shopping tomorrow.

     

    But the Governor says that maskless shoppers can be arrested for trespassing, and also sued if someone gets sick. Since this is planned and deliberate, I would think that a lawsuit from someone who is in one of those stores and becomes seriously ill would have a good chance of succeeding.

     

     

    I wouldn't take that case.  How do you prove causation?

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    robin from maine


       

      I wouldn't take that case.  How do you prove causation?

       

      I'm not a lawyer, so I can't answer that. But our Governor *is* a lawyer, and a former attorney general for the state.

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

         

        I'm not a lawyer, do I can't answer that. But our Governor *is* a lawyer, and a former attorney general for the state.

         

        So now I'm curious.  Do you have a link to the Governor's statement?

         

        Normally, you would need to prove causation.  I.e. it's not just that someone didn't wear a mask and you got sick, but rather that you got sick from that person because that person didn't wear a mask.

         

        In a situation where you were grocery shopping and someone didn't wear a mask, and you later got Covid, you'd need to show that you got Covid from that person.  Which means that you'd have to show that the person had Covid at the time that they approached you without a mask.  And also that you didn't catch Covid from someone else.  Ideally, you'd have isolated by yourself at home for 14 days before going to the grocery store, have been exposed only to this person while at the store, and then returned home to complete isolation before testing positive, with the other person having tested positive soon before going to the grocery store.  Not sure how realistic that scenario is.

         

        There have been lawsuits over the transmission of AIDS.  However, AIDS is much harder to transmit than COVID, which makes it much easier to prove that you got it from a specific person.

         

        (I should note that there might also be a cause of action for mental anguish from exposure to and the future possibility of contracting Covid.  From some quick reading I did, you see that sometimes in AIDS exposure litigation and also in exposure to carcinogens.  But of course there's a big distinction in that if you don't get COVID within 14 days after exposure, you're out of the woods.  Very different from carcinogens.)

         

        Now...one possibility is that Maine passed a law creating a presumption of liability if one enters an establishment without wearing a mask, and someone else contracts COVID while in that establishment.  But that would be national news if Maine did so.  (and I'm also not sure such a law would survive judicial review).

         

        Separate from all this, there's also the practicality - it only makes sense to sue people if they have deep pockets or have insurance.    You could win a $100K judgment from someone who only makes $30K a year, and end up worse off financially (since you'd be paying all your legal bills but not have much money coming in)

         

         

        This all is based on my taking Torts back in 1997.  I am not a personal injury lawyer.  If anyone here is, please chime in and correct me if appropriate.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        robin from maine


          https://www.mainepublic.org/post/gov-janet-mills-response-rising-covid-19-cases-economic-legislative-outlook

           

          I apologize but the link is to an hour long public radio call in show.

           

          I am thinking that if there is 1) a large group 2) deliberately, and announcing it in advance go to a grocery store, and 3) within a few days one or more are diagnosed with Covid, that a person who was likely infected shopping at that time might have a case.

           

           

          So now I'm curious.  Do you have a link to the Governor's statement?

           

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            There was a 4 country friendly gymnastics meet in Tokyo last weekend with the US, Russia, Japan and China. It doesn't sound like the US athletes quarantined before hand. They did have to have a negative test before traveling. Once there, there were strict rules to limit mingling among countries--you couldn't share an elevator with someone from another country, countries were on separate floors of the hotel, had separate training times, etc. It sounds like part of this was to see if you could pull off a competition, but also to hold something in the Olympic venue.

             

            I'm wondering if they think the Olympics are going to happen if they will limit the size of delegations.

             

            And on the note of the Olympics, are they going to try to control the post competition activities? Or just tell them use the provided condoms & mask up?

             

            Why wouldn’t the olympics happen? All the elites can travel covid free and just have everyone follow the social distance protocols from the host country and there shouldn’t be a problem. No. I highly doubt Tokyo will limit ANY activities the athletes do outside of the events themselves. This is why covid won’t stop spreading. Yes I FULLY believe it’s so Tokyo didn’t jut build a venue to host the olympics just to have it not happen. Oh and because sports ball competition events are back on tv.

            2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

              https://www.mainepublic.org/post/gov-janet-mills-response-rising-covid-19-cases-economic-legislative-outlook

               

              I apologize but the link is to an hour long public radio call in show.

               

              I am thinking that if there is 1) a large group 2) deliberately, and announcing it in advance go to a grocery store, and 3) within a few days one or more are diagnosed with Covid, that a person who was likely infected shopping at that time might have a case.

               

               

              They’re standing outside not going inside. 
              proving they have covid AND you got it from them will be hard because you’d need their medical records on top of explaining how you caught it by staying six feet away while wearing your mask. Sounds like something really hard to go after just because you don’t like someone’s stance on masks.

               

               

              californias governor just went to a birthday party. With people who live outside his home.  While he is asking people to limit non essential travel. I can’t imagine why people would second guess their leaders advice/rules/requirements/guidelines when the leaders don’t do it themselves. I mean....if non-essential travel means driving an hour to someone’s party with a bunch of people I never see more than once or twice a year I might have a birthday party the on a Thursday and invite some friends over for beers and turkey.

              2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.


              Elite Jogger

                In the UK face coverings are “mandatory” on public transport and supermarkets/shops. However, anyone can just go to the official government website and print out a mask exemption card and claim that they cause discomfort and distress. So the threat of a £200 fine for not wearing a mask seems a bit pointless!

                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                darkwave


                Mother of Cats

                  https://www.mainepublic.org/post/gov-janet-mills-response-rising-covid-19-cases-economic-legislative-outlook

                   

                  I apologize but the link is to an hour long public radio call in show.

                   

                  I am thinking that if there is 1) a large group 2) deliberately, and announcing it in advance go to a grocery store, and 3) within a few days one or more are diagnosed with Covid, that a person who was likely infected shopping at that time might have a case.

                   

                   

                  Might is the operative word.  It's still a pretty weak case.  You'd need to show that you were likely infected at that time (meaning that it was very unlikely that you were infected elsewhere - challenging when there are anecdotal stories of people who never left their homes or had visitors and still caught it.).

                   

                  And...a big question you'd have to answer:  why didn't you just avoid the grocery store that these people announced they were going to?  Or leave it when they arrived?

                  Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                   

                  And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    BTW, I don't mean to come across as picking on you, per se.  It's just an interesting topic to spitball, and I'm enjoying the chance to relive law school and go all Socratic.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    DavePNW


                      mask exemption card

                       

                      It’s been posted that these should only be acceptable if worn over the nose and mouth.

                      Dave

                      Teresadfp


                      One day at a time

                         

                        Might is the operative word.  It's still a pretty weak case.  You'd need to show that you were likely infected at that time (meaning that it was very unlikely that you were infected elsewhere - challenging when there are anecdotal stories of people who never left their homes or had visitors and still caught it.).

                         

                        And...a big question you'd have to answer:  why didn't you just avoid the grocery store that these people announced they were going to?  Or leave it when they arrived?

                         

                        One problem is that now the group knows we've exposed their plans, they're going underground and not communicating them publicly.  They could show up at any store, any time.  And yes, they're planning on entering stores.  If you're already in the store, too bad.

                         

                        I've had to change my Facebook settings so people can't see my advocacy roles or other information, because the anti-maskers started sending me messages.  Implying that I'm hurting the mentally ill, for instance.  Nothing so horrible that I can report them to Facebook, but still concerning. It upsets me because I had that information public in case someone in need of help wanted to reach out to me (and they have, in the past).

                        DavePNW


                           

                          One problem is that now the group knows we've exposed their plans, they're going underground and not communicating them publicly.  They could show up at any store, any time.  And yes, they're planning on entering stores.  If you're already in the store, too bad.

                           

                           

                          There was an anti-mask group who descended upon a local grocery store here; the store responded by evacuating all customers and shutting down for the day. Which was probably the right thing to do, but is a pretty unhappy outcome for everyone.

                          Dave


                          Interval Junkie --Nobby

                            Implying that I'm hurting the mentally ill, for instance.

                             

                            Isn't it wonderful?  This sudden concern for the mentally ill from people who otherwise want to thumb their nose at health concerns?

                             

                            To be honest, I'm waiting for someone to call wearing a mask a sign that an individual cares more for their community, than they do about their inconvenience.  And I'd love to hear these anti-maskers organizing outreach programs to the mentally ill, and those suffering from the despair of isolation, in their communities.  But I haven't heard of anything like that.

                            2016 Goals: Lose the 10lbs I gained for not having goals

                            Teresadfp


                            One day at a time

                               

                              Isn't it wonderful?  This sudden concern for the mentally ill from people who otherwise want to thumb their nose at health concerns?

                               

                              To be honest, I'm waiting for someone to call wearing a mask a sign that an individual cares more for their community, than they do about their inconvenience.  And I'd love to hear these anti-maskers organizing outreach programs to the mentally ill, and those suffering from the despair of isolation, in their communities.  But I haven't heard of anything like that.

                               

                              Very good point.  I just edited one of my Facebook posts on a public page to read:  "For those anti-maskers who like to copy and paste my posts on their page, here's a question for you: Those of you who messaged me chastising me for harming the mentally ill, what steps have you taken to help that population? Specifically. I'm glad you are concerned about these folks, one of whom is my son and willingly wears his mask since he knows it shows he cares about others. What are you doing?"

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                 

                                One problem is that now the group knows we've exposed their plans, they're going underground and not communicating them publicly.  They could show up at any store, any time.  And yes, they're planning on entering stores.  If you're already in the store, too bad.

                                 

                                I've had to change my Facebook settings so people can't see my advocacy roles or other information, because the anti-maskers started sending me messages.  Implying that I'm hurting the mentally ill, for instance.  Nothing so horrible that I can report them to Facebook, but still concerning. It upsets me because I had that information public in case someone in need of help wanted to reach out to me (and they have, in the past).

                                 

                                This reads like it’s some covert operation to find these groups and expose them or shame them for being in public. It’s like being at college again and hearing people plan protests when religious groups were invited on campus and allowed a small section of campus away from the main travel area. Just walk past them wearing your mask and go on with your day. 

                                I find the best method of Facebook is deleting your profile and it’s worked out very nicely for me. No annoying messages or people to block. 

                                 

                                I would like to watch the system burn down and hear my governor say “no more masks mandates and no more social distancing

                                or limited capacities, but you can wear them and stay home if you want. It’s just not my responsibility to protect you from everything. I have a state to run” just to Ed the reactions from the maskers and the anti maskers. Maybe both would be at my grocery store. Imagine the freedom you’d have if you could do what you wanted.

                                2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.