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What comes first?? (Read 1231 times)

Scout7


    Not to steal from Nobby, but the formulaic method gives too much to chance. It works great if you hit the median. Otherwise, you could be off quite a bit. The best way to establish heart rate zones is to perform a field test. This is done by warming up, then starting out at a pace that you can hold for about an hour (somewhere around your 10K pace for most runners). After the first 10 minutes, hit the lap button (or just start recording, however yours works). Run at that steady pace for 20 minutes. When finished, your average HR during those 20 minutes should be your Lactate Threshold pace. You can then use that to establish training zones. The other option is to take the average from a 10K race. That can often work well, too. http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/determinezones.html http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/heartrate.htm


    Just Be

      You can always try to get your maximum heart rate by racing fast after a good warm up as well, but check with a doc before doing that in order to get cleared. For me, when I first got my HRM, 2 weeks later I participated in a 2 mile race. I pushed almost as hard as I could have during the last 1/4 mile, pushing even harder during a final sprint across the finish line. My HRM recorded a new max and I just use that now for my training zones. My actual max might be a bit higher, I figure I'll just update it again in the HRM if I ever see it spike higher than what is recorded now.
        Not to steal from Nobby, but the formulaic method gives too much to chance. It works great if you hit the median. Otherwise, you could be off quite a bit. The best way to establish heart rate zones is to perform a field test. This is done by warming up, then starting out at a pace that you can hold for about an hour (somewhere around your 10K pace for most runners). After the first 10 minutes, hit the lap button (or just start recording, however yours works). Run at that steady pace for 20 minutes. When finished, your average HR during those 20 minutes should be your Lactate Threshold pace. You can then use that to establish training zones. The other option is to take the average from a 10K race. That can often work well, too. http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/determinezones.html http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/heartrate.htm
        Interesting info. Thanks.
          there is an old theory about fast twitch and slow twitch muscles...sprinters use more fast twitch than long distance...(or so my old brain kind of remembers). so in order to go faster, you have to use more fast twitch...this means sprints...or maybe a better term would be interval training. But, in order to go faster, you need more, efficient use of oxygen...that comes from endurance training, ie..longer runs. Best training suggestions is to mix it up a bit during the week...work on longer runs, but then do some interval (or speedwork) to fire up the fast twitch. as in many things, there is a balance...


          SMART Approach

            How do you know how fast to go? Do you do long runs at a pace relative to a certain race time? How about lactate threshold tempos? What determines the paces you should be running? Thanks. --Jimmy
            Jimmy Very difficult to stay in a certain percentage of max HR especially if you don't know your max HR. For you, you best guide would be 5K races. Run one, (don't start too fast) and then use your avg pace as a guideline. eg. you ran a 27:50 5K race which is approximately a 9 min avg pace. You generally training runs should be around 2 min slower pace than this give or take 15 sec. or around 11 min in this case. One day per week you can pick up pace a bit for 10 min working up to 20-30 min at around a 10 min pace to start and working down to a 9:30 pace over time. I wouldn't even focus on this faster pace until you have been running at least 4 months consistently. Take your time. Most of your running should be controlled and comfortable.

            Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

            Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training

            Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique

            www.smartapproachtraining.com

              I walked into my bedroom last night and to my surprise there was a chicken and an egg laying there. The egg was lying back…smiling and smoking a cigarette and the chicken looked pissed off. The chicken jumped up and yelled... “Does this answer your question?"
              Runners around the state are getting better today ...are you one of them? TRAIN HARD
                Nobby, For runners who do use HRMs, what what you suggest for most runs? 180-age (MAF)? Percentage of max HR?
                I don't know! ;o) I'd say this is a good time for your to wear HRM and check some of your runs. I like what Scout7 said. 5k time CAN be a guide but I won't strictly adhere to it either. You see, I've had an experience where my 5k time dropped by 2 minutes in 3 weeks just by balancing my training. For someone who hadn't quite "balanced" his/her training, the current 5k time may not be that good of a guide either. Same thing. When some young kid comes to me and ask questions because he/she wants to become a marathon runner. One of my first questions would be; "Why marathon?" Because so may others are running? If you're a young aspiring runner, you should pick the most suited event based on what suits best for you. One of the first questions would be, "What's your basic speed?" If you can run 200m in 22 seconds, why try a marathon? To break 4 hours? Or you may have a chance to become a national level middle distance runner. They go out and run 200m without any preparation and come home disappointed with 28 seconds. Well, when was the last time you evern even sprinted? I don't buy into that 220-age or 180-age or whatever. There are tons of oldies out there who are so much fitter and can push themselves so much harder than young guys. Age is not a good predictor (although I do have to admit; I do feel it! ;o)). There is now a little more sophisticated formula (I can't remember off the top of my head) but that's still the same thing. Best formula would be for YOU to get out and check your HR while running "comfortable", "challenging" and "hard" and read your own heart rate and get a grip for yourself. I know most coaches would say, when doing repetitions, your HR should come down to 120 before you do another one. I usually "cheat" after it comes down to below 140. I check it once in a while on treadmill when I do reps on treadmill and, with this particular LifeFitness model, 140 seems just fine. Now machines are slightly different so I don't necessarily buy into this "140" 100% either but it's a good guide for me. I have a HR monitor and I have used it. I used it quite extensively when I was coming back from injury--I try to keep it below 120 but it was too damn slow so I changed it to 135. I set it so it'll beat when it goes beyond 135. That kept my in a good perspective and I think it worked well for me. Why 135? I just used my "educated guess". I know Lasse Viren did a lot of running with his HR even below 100! He would go and run 15k in less than 60 minutes and his HR is not even 100! Well, should he have pushed so it'll go beyond 120 or 140? I doubt if that helped him any more. Should WE try that? Well, I checked it before and it drove me absolutely nuts! My HR below 100 is like walking. That worked great for HIM. I'll stick with my 135~140 for easy run.
                  I walked into my bedroom last night and to my surprise there was a chicken and an egg laying there. The egg was lying back…smiling and smoking a cigarette and the chicken looked pissed off. The chicken jumped up and yelled... “Does this answer your question?"
                  Big grin Hilarious!!!! Hah hah. You got a good laugh out of me!


                  Feeling the growl again

                    I walked into my bedroom last night and to my surprise there was a chicken and an egg laying there. The egg was lying back…smiling and smoking a cigarette and the chicken looked pissed off. The chicken jumped up and yelled... “Does this answer your question?"
                    LMAO

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     

                    I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                     

                      Best formula would be for YOU to get out and check your HR while running "comfortable", "challenging" and "hard" and read your own heart rate and get a grip for yourself.
                      Thanks Nobby. That makes sense.
                      BeeRunB


                        Jim: When you do, say, 40 minutes of “test run”; going out on relatively flat course, taking wind in consideration (head wind or tail wind); you go out and run comfortably strong for 20 minutes, then turn around and come back in 25 minutes; then you’ll know you started out too fast, don’t you? Or if you feel it so easy that you come back in 15 minutes, you’ll know you are not running hard enough. Or put it another way; you go out and run, say, 1:30 strongly and evenly; but that run just completely wipes you out and you’ll have to take 3 or 4 days off afterwards, then you’ll know you pushed yourself too much, won’t you? We (human being) have been running without heart rate monitor (though, once again, I’m not necessarily against HRM) or Garmin to check out how fast each of our runs in minutes-per-mile and we did alright. People have trained just fine way before we even had a concept of “lactate threshold” run by gauging how we felt. One time, Ron Clarke, a great Australian distance runner, probably the greatest distance runner the world has ever seen, was asked at a clinic how he trained. He stood up and said, “When I felt good, I ran hard. When I didn’t feel good, I didn’t run as hard.” And he sat down. Now personally I like a little more structure. But our everyday condition changes; we have biorhythm; stress in life and work will affect your condition… There’s NO way you can precisely calculate what pace you should be running at. The more calculation you use, the further away you’d be from being in tune with your own body (unless you’re using it to “teach” the effort). Then the question becomes; would YOU dictate your effort of the day, or would you let pre-determined calculated number to dictate your effort? It would be so much better for you if you just go out for, say, 40 minutes and turn around and come back in almost same time; preferably a minute or two faster; KNOWING you could have gone a little bit harder or little bit longer if you had to; or, as Arthur Lydiard termed “Pleasantly Tired” state. People still have hardest time understanding what Lydiard’s ¼, ½ and ¾ effort. I believe this is because most people are so hooked with someone else or some pre-determined chart dictate the exact pace (effort) and, more often than not, run themselves in trouble because they are so preoccupied with sticking with that pre-determined pace regardless of what signs their own bodies are signaling.
                        Thanks, Nobby. I've been using a heart rate monitor for years for training (not in races) for most runs. A lot of people don't believe in them, and that's cool, but as a relative beginner, it really helped me to slow down when I should and to speed up as well. I would recommend to any beginner to slap one on and stay under 180-age for awhile, walking if you have to, until your body builds it's aerobic system. Building time on feet or mileage by 5% per week. Then think about running races or hard tempo work. I know more than a few people who got injured in their first year, then never ran again, going away with the belief that running is harmful and bad for you. I run on a bike trail, and I often see newbies running by (I can tell they're newbies by their clothes, weight, and look) and they are breathing very hard. Going too fast. That's probably the main reason people get injured in their first year and quit. There was a show on PBS recently where they took beginners and trained them for the Boston Marathon. My first impression was that they were all running too fast for their fitness. Most of them were breathing like dogs on a hot day. Many of them ended up injured or didn't make it. I remember feeling a bit angry with the trainers for not slowing them down. Not being smarter with them. They should have all been wearing HRM's and told not to exceed a certain number--walking if they have to (almost all who made it to the marathon ended up walking anyway they were so shot and aerobically unfit). People generally understand a concrete number. (In keeping with the topic question: Distance/effort in a lower HR aerobic zone over speedwork at first for sure for me. I am one who doesn't really get the 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 effort Lydiard is talking about. I'm sure I could come up with my own (when I'm breathing this hard I'm 1/4, this hard 1/2), but would it be correct? How do you go about teaching a beginner these levels of effort? Would you even bother? What DO you do with beginners (if you ever coach any)? Thanks, Nobby. --Jimmy
                        Scout7


                          Actually, all but one person finished the marathon on that show. Many became injured, though, to some degree or another. Also, 180-age is a formula that gives a number that doesn't work for everyone. In fact, that number can be off by as many as 10 bpm, which can make a big difference. The best way is to go to a lab and get some tests done. Or you can conduct your own field test, and use that to establish your zones. This formula is my biggest issue with Maffetone. How do you teach a beginner proper pacing? RPE has been shown to be fairly accurate, even in newer runners. Beyond that, the old "conversational pace" is another option. Listening to breathing is another option. It mostly requires the person to really pay attention to their bodies. I disagree that new runners need an HRM. In fact, I think that it can be intimidating for many people. Whenever you introduce a tool like that, you need to make sure that the person using it has a full understanding of what they are doing, and why. Otherwise, they lose sight of the goal. I've met people who are slaves to their HRM. It becomes more of a numbers game, and less about the actual running. Additionally, I think that there's a risk of learning to rely on a device to the point where they never learn to listen to their bodies as well. An HRM is a useful tool, but is not a complete replacement for our own abilities to listen to the feedback being given to us through the natural ways.
                            Jim: I need to take a nap after a reply to you (at 7:00AM, yes! My wife just ad an ACL surgery and I had to cool her leg every 2 hours last night and I ended up having probably 3 hours of constantly interrupted sleep last night!). What you told us is probably THE story to live by for ANY beginning runner. I remember watching the same PBS story and felt exactly the same way! I tell ya, they give those "trainer" whatever the certificate they give away but they don't seem to know Jack! And here's my feeling; if you go by numbers, that's what happens. They probably have some sort of formula and they punch those numbers in, rain or shine or hot and humid or whatever. Average mile for 5k race + whatever the number for minute-per-mile pace? I NEVER buy into those things. I keep saying that I'm not particularly against HRM. I don't necessarily wear it when I train to gauge my HR--I'd rather go by how I feel. But I think it's an excellent choice to wear it to keep you slow down. I've read somewhere that once Frank Shorter wore it and went for a run; it kept beeping him that he's running too hard while his instinct told him he's just fine. After a while, he just took it off and never bothered again. In other words, he knew he could trust his own instinct and the machine kept arguing his instinct. But then again, when I got together with him last summer; he told me that he now wears it to keep himself slow (or I should say, "easy"). (and he laughed and added, "now that we're getting older but think we can still run like when we were younger!") So I see you follow MAF method??? I think it's very valid and a very good idea. The only think I would sort of disagree is to keep it ALWAYS below a certain HR. Lorraine Moller knows Mafferton in person (very well) and we were talking about his method last time I visited her. Being a Kiwi, she loves to run a tough undulating terrain. She introduced me to a path that goes straight up that foothill on the west side of Boulder (I call it "a goat path"). It basically goes up and up and up...over this uneven footing. Yes, at mile high, you'll start to breathe pretty hard. I'm sure our HR was shooting up the roof. I understand, under such condition with MAF method, you'd walk up the hill. We simply think that's no fun. We go up the hills hard--and we don't necessarily think it's bad for you. Would I suggest a beginner to "attack" the hills? Maybe or maybe not. I would definitely suggest he/she walk when it gets too much. How much is too much depends, I guess, on how he/she feels. I do coach (or give advice) to anyone; time (or level) doesn't bother me none. I've helped quite a few "beginners". But I have helped "newbies" to their first marathon (including my wife) but most of them broke 4-hours...relatively easily. I've corresponded with a few people whose times were somewhere around 4:20~4:45 range. I'm in fact intrigued to know more about what they do and how I can actually help them. I'm sort of convinced almost most anybody should be able to run sub-4. Those who don't, in most cases, are either trying to run a marathon too soon, training too hard, or training is not balanced. Would I recommend "newbies" to gauge their body's reactions? Absolutely! What better place to teach them to listen to their body!? HRM actually helps a lot in the beginning to get more in-tuned with themselves. They'll learn what "easy effort" or "hard effort" feel like. Or Lydiard's 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 effort? Well, I usually go by %. I'd tell them to go by "70% effort" or "80%" effort or whatever. It seems to me most people get a better grip with % than 1/4....effort. If they've experienced some races and they are actually training a bit more seriously, I often say things like "think of this as the start of your 5k race..." or "think of this as in the middle part of your 5k race when you're just starting to slack!" ;o) If you don't like Lydiard's 1/4...effort chart, you're not alone--Bill Bowerman told me he didn't like it either! ;o)
                            BeeRunB


                              Also, 180-age is a formula that gives a number that doesn't work for everyone. In fact, that number can be off by as many as 10 bpm, which can make a big difference. The best way is to go to a lab and get some tests done. Or you can conduct your own field test, and use that to establish your zones. This formula is my biggest issue with Maffetone. How do you teach a beginner proper pacing? RPE has been shown to be fairly accurate, even in newer runners. Beyond that, the old "conversational pace" is another option. Listening to breathing is another option. It mostly requires the person to really pay attention to their bodies. I disagree that new runners need an HRM. In fact, I think that it can be intimidating for many people. Whenever you introduce a tool like that, you need to make sure that the person using it has a full understanding of what they are doing, and why. Otherwise, they lose sight of the goal. I've met people who are slaves to their HRM. It becomes more of a numbers game, and less about the actual running. Additionally, I think that there's a risk of learning to rely on a device to the point where they never learn to listen to their bodies as well. An HRM is a useful tool, but is not a complete replacement for our own abilities to listen to the feedback being given to us through the natural ways.
                              Correct, Scout, no one NEEDS a HRM. We've run for thousands of year without them. But if you have a good tool that will help you stay healthy and controlled in your levels of exertion, then why not. I would venture to say that even some "elites" could use one just to keep slow enough on their easy days, which if what I read is true, is a problem for some of them. Sometimes, personality and the desire to run hard all the time can lead to ill-health in the best of us, even when we know we have to recover. That's what I'm really talking about here. Health, not fitness. They are different. Sure you can be fit enough to run a half-marathon, but if you get there all injured or sick, then you are not maintaining health, and are overstressing your body. If people like to run and they quit because they are always injured, then perhaps they weren't training properly. That's the purpose of the 180-age formula--managing stress and maintaining health while building the aerobic system. It and the HRM may not be necessary for anyone, but the idea underneath is I believe. Whatever it takes to get the level of exertion down, then do it, learn it, or teach it. Health first, fitness second. Conversational pace is a broad zone, as I can easily converse up until I reach near lactate threshold. Tell a beginner to go out and run a pace at which he or she can talk, and they might be running way too fast for their level of development. I don't see how a HRM could confuse someone. "Here put this on, and if it beeps or goes over 130 bpm, slow down, walk if you have to." No more difficult than reading an alarm clock or shutting one off. The view of some non HRM users is that we are all slaves to the thing. I don't think so. I use a HRM, have a method and it's been working (took my marathon time from 4:14 to 3:22). I don't race with the HRM (I don't believe people who race with them are slaves either). I use it as a tool to help me ascertain race paces beforehand as well as training paces. A beginner doesn't really know when to get faster in training. The HRM takes puts the decision in the body. If I run at 180-age, build mileage, I don't have to ask when to get faster at that effort, I just do as I try to keep at that level of exertion. E.G. Starting out at 12:00 miles in a zone of 130-140 bpm, and 3 months later running 10:00 miles just to stay in that zone. Very useful for a beginner. What do you mean 180-age is off by ten beats in people? Relative to what? There are adjustments in the program for different things. Ultimately, the formula was developed on RQ tests and based on a certain point where you burn more fat than sugar as fuel (I don't know the specifics). It's not based on maximum or resting hear rate, but on how much fat or sugar you are burning. Thus the training keeps you working on aerobic fibers mostly (during the aerobic phase of the training, there is an anaerobic phase in MAF training). I also believe that many beginners should be run/walking at first. They are either too heavy or just so unfit, that they need a year before they can start running everything. Using a heart-rate limit or zone, is a way to determine when they are ready to run everything. Just recently as I started back on MAF training, I had to walk some hills and run/walk a bit at the end of some runs. Wasn't ready yet. Foolish? Maybe. I don't care. I go by race success. Of course, all this can be done without a HRM, I don't disagree with you there. But sometimes maybe it is the best thing for someone. It was for me. It took a lot of the pacing guesswork out of the game, and helped me to 3 BQ's in my first 6 marathons. Not boasting, as my times are not even regional class yet for my age, but just showing that it can be used for the good, and that great progress can be made. on the PBS show: I thought some of those PBS runners dropped out before they got there. My bad. Still , most were in sorry aerobic shape and not healthy when they got to that marathon last question to you. If you were coaching, you would rule out ever using a HRM for one of your students or athletes? You could never see a scenario where one might be necessary? Keep going! --Jimmy
                              Scout7


                                I have one. I even put it on sometimes. So, yes, there are times where it can be useful. But I see a lot of talk about how great an HRM is, and little discussion of alternatives. That's what I'm offering up. Some people, it's a money thing (can't afford it), others just don't like them. I've never said they aren't useful. They most certainly can be. But I think that they need to be coupled with other tools as well. Regarding the formula method: http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/heartrate.htm I have a friend, his normal HR is higher, but he's older than me (he's about 35). His MAF should be around 145, and I know from running with him that it's actually higher than that (he ran a marathon, and average low 170s to high 160s). So in this case, the formula would have him training at too low a HR, and he won't see the same gains. Elite runners aren't running for health. They run to win. It's how they make a living. If you want to run for health, then you have no need to ever once worry about intervals, tempos, or anything beyond consistency. That is a completely different discussion, and a much easier one. If you are looking for race improvement, then that's a separate discussion. Running for health, you won't need to worry about a whole lot, you can eliminate much of the debate. Heck, if you're just running for health, then your volume shouldn't ever need to go above MAYBE 30 miles per week, and should probably be less. But this is not how you maximize your racing. That's trickier. I have never once stated that running easy isn't useful. In fact, easier running should be the primary component of any runner's schedule. This concept is not Maffetone's alone; Lydiard, Pfitzinger, Daniels.... They all state this. But Maffetone also talks about higher intensity runs, and periodization. This is not a topic that I see discussed much about Maffetone. Why not? It's an important key to maximizing your racing. However you determine what's easy is ultimately your business. Like I said, my biggest issue with Maffetone is the formula. That's pretty much it. That, and he doesn't discuss alternatives to using a HRM that I've ever seen. If he talked about RPE or pacing, I think it would be much more available to other runners.
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