2017 Sub 3 Marathons...and beyond! (Read 403 times)

slingrunner


     

    Taking outside aid is cheating. it could get you disqualified.  (probably not, unless you are winning the race).

     

    Elites get bottles...why is it cheating if I do the same thing?  Not littering clothing and cups along the course isn't a bad thing either.  It's not like I'm going to be riding behind the bike...although with the winds I'm hearing it is tempting...

    5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

    GabbyTriBoy


    Must Go Faster

      He was just saying outside help is officially against the rules and can get you disqualified. It probably won't but can.

       

      Mikkey I'm too fat for the treadmill in my house. It's was given to me and kinda sux. Plus treadmills are horrible machines.

      PRs: 5k: 16:45 (04/17) -- 10k: 35:48 (03/18) -- 10m: 58:04 (04/16)  -- HM: 1:17:29 (03/18) -- FM: 2:47:11 (11/17)

      Goals: 2:44 FM, 16:29 5k

      Next Up: Cherry Blossom 10 (4/19), Boston (04/19)

      paul2432


         

        Elites get bottles...why is it cheating if I do the same thing?  Not littering clothing and cups along the course isn't a bad thing either.  It's not like I'm going to be riding behind the bike...although with the winds I'm hearing it is tempting...

        Elites get bottles at authorized aid stations.  See USATF rules 143 and 241.  241 (2) (g) in particular:

         

        “A competitor who collects refreshment from a place other than a refreshment station is liable to disqualification by the Referee.”

         

        http://www.usatf.org/usatf/files/69/697d040d-caaf-4271-82be-c8df804e263d.pdf

        GabbyTriBoy


        Must Go Faster

          IAM has bragged about getting a cup of ice from a kid along the Boston course this past year. He said something like that ice being his savior. I should contact BAA. Anonymous tip.

          PRs: 5k: 16:45 (04/17) -- 10k: 35:48 (03/18) -- 10m: 58:04 (04/16)  -- HM: 1:17:29 (03/18) -- FM: 2:47:11 (11/17)

          Goals: 2:44 FM, 16:29 5k

          Next Up: Cherry Blossom 10 (4/19), Boston (04/19)

          Mikkey


          Mmmm Bop

            Elites get bottles at authorized aid stations.  See USATF rules 143 and 241.  241 (2) (g) in particular:

             

            “A competitor who collects refreshment from a place other than a refreshment station is liable to disqualification by the Referee.”

             

            http://www.usatf.org/usatf/files/69/697d040d-caaf-4271-82be-c8df804e263d.pdf

             

            Jobsworth?

             

            Strugglr - You’ll need photographic evidence regarding the cup of ice. Innocent until proven guilty.

            5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

            Marky_Mark_17


              Strugglr - my short-distance times are similar to yours and I would have to say mileage plays a big part.  I did that 2:57 FM off ~50mpw and have zero doubt that nudging 80-90+ would have made me a lot quicker.  I wasn't inclined to do it in a first marathon cycle for two reasons: (1) that would have been a huge step up from my previous mileage (~40-45mpw when I was doing just HMs) so no idea if the body would deal with it, and (2) with a baby and demanding job, time just wouldn't allow that volume of training.

               

              TBH I am all about optimising effort:reward ratio so I am going to stick with the short stuff for a while 

              Me- back to work this week with some fun sessions including a decent tempo block and a good track session on Saturday.  Will probably stay around this level for the next couple of weeks and then maybe do a mini-taper before the Omaha HM.  Body is almost back to normal after the marathon and it'd be nice to finish the year with a good race.

               

              M: 12km easy

              T: weights, spin bike

              W: 17.7km mostly easy

              Th: 13km incl. 10km tempo building from 3:50/km to 3:40/km

              F: weights

              S: 9.4km track session incl. 5 x 800m / 200m rest

              S: 21km easy

              Total: 73.3km

              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

              * Net downhill course

              Last race: Maraetai HM, 10 Mar, DNF

              Up next: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr

              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

              slingrunner


                Elites get bottles at authorized aid stations.  See USATF rules 143 and 241.  241 (2) (g) in particular:

                 

                “A competitor who collects refreshment from a place other than a refreshment station is liable to disqualification by the Referee.”

                 

                http://www.usatf.org/usatf/files/69/697d040d-caaf-4271-82be-c8df804e263d.pdf

                 

                I'd much rather get bottles at authorized stations, then random places where I happen to be able to get a spectator at.  So the elites have an advantage over me.  In any case i am nowhere near the level I would need to be at to win some sort of prize.  In advanced marathon Pfitzinger recommends having family members give you bottles along the course.

                 

                Anyway, thanks everybody for the advice on my pacing.  You gave me the confidence to shoot for under 3 hours, which I think I very likely would have gotten under normal circumstances.  I wound up finishing 3:02:23.  According to past weather, the winds were 31mph at the start and 31 mph at the finish, with 25mph at some point in the middle.  Gusts were in the low 40s

                 

                I started out with the 3hr rabbit.  I was a bit disappointed that he ran the first couple miles behind pace, when we had the wind at our back, but I knew he was pacing it the best he could and it was only off by 10 seconds or less.  He told me that he was instructed to run even pacing, which I'm curious of how you all feel about, as I'll reference later why it was an issue.

                 

                I stayed with him for the first 9 miles or so, but when we went up a steep hill into the wind, he didn't change his pace at all.  At least 2/3 of the group fell off at that point.... from an effort standpoint, I would have had to be running the equivalent of 40? seconds per mile faster to stick with him.  I did catch back on, but it took a decent amount of time in the wind solo.

                 

                I stuck with him until about mile 15 or so, and we got hit with some major winds on kelly drive, and again more than half of the group fell off the pace.  It took a couple miles, but I did eventually catch back on for another mile (my 30K estimated finish was 3:00:01, so I was just starting to fall off there).  The winds proved too much though, and the slow methodical hill directly into the wind going into (miles 18-20) Manayunk just broke me.  I'm not sure when I lost my 143 seconds, but it happened pretty quickly.  At mile 20 you turn around and start going downhill and with the wind.  By mile 22 I was about 2.5 minutes behind pace, so that means I was able to go back to the 3 hour pace for the rest of the race, which contained a bit more tailwind than headwind, but not by a ton.

                 

                I'm very happy with my results...an 8 minute PR.

                 

                Philly is the only marathon I've raced, so I'm curious...are pacers always told to keep an even pace?  He held a very steady pace and did what he was told to, but there were downhills with the wind where many of us were "waiting" for him, and anytime we hit a major hill or wind, the group always broke apart, when we needed to be together the most.

                5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

                  Philly Runners: Great job to all on a very, very windy day!

                   

                  Mark: Great week. Your track sessions are insane. You've got some serious wheels! Will the Omaha half be a PR attempt for you?

                   

                  Me: Continuing to ramp up mileage. I had some major soreness most of the week, partly DOMS from the 5k last weekend but mostly from starting back up my strength routine after a few weeks off from it. Now it is finally subsiding. I'm also trying to add in some hills after some time away from those. Piwi is making me feel guilty with his 10,000+ feet of climbing per week!

                   

                  I decided on Ocean's Run (March 4) as my next marathon. It's flat and in early March it should still be cold (better be!).

                   

                  Weekly Summary
                  Monday, Nov 13, 2017 thru Sunday, Nov 19, 2017

                  <tfoot> </tfoot>
                  Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
                  Tue 10.2 8:22 Morning Run 514 strava
                  Wed 10.1 7:21 Morning Run with 10 x 2 min on/2 min off 558 strava
                  Thu 6.2 7:53 Morning Run on TM 0 strava
                  Fri 11.5 8:20 Morning Run with hills 1012 strava
                  Sat 10.3 8:51 Trail run in Sega Park 652 strava
                  Sun 18.0 7:56 Long run 1310 strava
                    66.3 8:08   4046  

                  2:52:16 (2018)

                    Slingrunner: I missed your post; great job and congrats on the big PR! That wind sounds like it was brutal.

                    2:52:16 (2018)

                    LedLincoln


                    not bad for mile 25

                       

                      Philly is the only marathon I've raced, so I'm curious...are pacers always told to keep an even pace?  He held a very steady pace and did what he was told to, but there were downhills with the wind where many of us were "waiting" for him, and anytime we hit a major hill or wind, the group always broke apart, when we needed to be together the most.

                       

                      Slingrunner - great job under tough conditions. Congratulations!  I can answer this question - no, our local marathon (Lincoln Marathon) and many in this region use SmartPacing. They are based in Kansas City. They calculate each mile based on hills, expected congestion, expected fatigue toward the end, and print pace bands accordingly. It seems to work pretty well. Interestingly, they do first mile or two at a minute or more below pace, then make up for it in the middle miles.

                      paul2432


                        Congrats Slingrunner.  "cheating" was probably too strong a word, should have said, "technically against the rules" or something like that.  I'm reminded of old threads before headphones were race legal.  Someone would ask "will I be DQed if I run with headphones".  Half the people would say, go for it, you will likely not be DQed and the other half would say, "why can't you just follow the rules, this is what is wrong with society these days . . . "  Glad you had a good race, stinks regarding weather conditions.  My understanding is pacers are usually told to run even splits.  A friend of mine was recently a pacer at one of the Revel Marathons (5000 ft of elevation loss with most of it in the first 15 miles then flat).  He was told to run even splits, but ran even effort because the guidance was clearly ridiculous, although he found himself ahead of the next faster pace group which was weird.

                         

                        Mikkey - "jobworth" - learned a new word day.  I wouldn't complain to race officials, but I think it is worth pointing out here in case someone was genuinely unaware of the rules.  I wonder how folks feel about cutting corners going on the sidewalk instead of staying on the street or cutting inside cones at a turn.  I don't do it but I bet plenty of mid to back of packers do.

                         

                        Anyway, here is my week (9/12 for Tucson Marathon on 12/9)

                         

                        Monday didn't sync for some reason, ran 6 on the TM on Monday.  Pretty good long run today with 10 @ MP (around 6:34 average for the 10) although I was a little overheated by the end.  Tuesday was intervals on the TM.  My work does a lunchtime group run every year which was Wednesday.  Also, working on my basic speed with some 20-30 second pickups throughout some of my easy runs.

                         

                        <tfoot> </tfoot>
                        Day Miles Pace Duration Description Egain Link

                        Tue

                        10.1 7:47 1:18 8x800 w 400 jogs 0 strava
                        Wed 0.8 8:33 0:07 Turkey Trot wu 42 strava
                        Wed 5.0 7:28 0:37 Work Turkey Trot - Trails 551 strava
                        Thu 9.2 8:20 1:16 Easy run 610 strava
                        Fri 5.3 7:50 0:41 With 8x30s v. hard (2m jogs) 0 strava
                        Sat 10.6 8:04 1:25 With 11x20s pickups 160 strava
                        Sun 17.1 7:12 2:03 10 @ MP 288 strava
                          64.1 7:44 7:30   1651
                        paul2432


                           Interestingly, they do first mile or two at a minute or more below pace, then make up for it in the middle miles.

                           

                          They justify this by saying "The body needs to warm up for at least 2 miles".  Seems like a better solution would be to warm up before the race, rather than throw away 90+ seconds at the start.

                          slingrunner


                             

                            They justify this by saying "The body needs to warm up for at least 2 miles".  Seems like a better solution would be to warm up before the race, rather than throw away 90+ seconds at the start.

                             

                            90 seconds seems extreme, although I understand 5-10.  In this case, with a 30mph tailwind for much of the first 2 miles, I would have loved to bank 10-20 seconds, and spend them on the climbs into the wind later on.

                            5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

                            Mikkey


                            Mmmm Bop

                               

                               

                               

                              Philly is the only marathon I've raced, so I'm curious...are pacers always told to keep an even pace?  He held a very steady pace and did what he was told to, but there were downhills with the wind where many of us were "waiting" for him, and anytime we hit a major hill or wind, the group always broke apart, when we needed to be together the most.

                               

                              I’ve been a pacer at my local marathon on a number of occasions and never been given specific instructions apart from don’t finish more than 90 seconds faster than goal time. There’s a few rolling hills in the first half and always been a tail and headwind along the seafront. I always tell anyone who asks that I’ll run by effort and that some miles will be slower/faster. Bottom line is that a pacer should use common sense rather than act like a robot.

                               

                              Anyway, great job in those conditions and you’ll definitely get under 3 hours in the future. And get yourself a Garmin so that you don’t have to rely on a rabbit next time.

                              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                              mattw4jc


                                Tough conditions @slingrunner, but still an excellent time. I ran with pacers on my sub-3. I decided to barely look at my watch and trust them, although I double-checked occasionally. They did not do even pacing and they came in probably 3 minutes under. They dropped me with about 1.5 miles to go but I had enough banked by then to get under. I definitely used them a bit for some wind shielding.

                                 

                                I had a decent Week 1 of the Pfitz 18/70 plan. A bit of a ramp up for me as I hadn't been above 50 much for months, but will be so for the next 18 weeks. The Wednesday Medium Long Run takes it out of me probably as much as anything. I do these in the morning, starting at about 4:40 am. By that night I was pretty out of it and decided to scrap the Thursday recovery 5. I mostly made up for it on other days. I averaged about 6:25 for the 4 tempo miles which isn't great, but is about where I have been in previous cycles, so promising. I've been using an HR monitor recently and trying to match the ranges that Pfitz describes for the different runs. So far so good.

                                 

                                Monday, Nov 13, 2017 thru Sunday, Nov 19, 2017

                                Day Miles Pace Description Link
                                Tue 9.2 8:13 General Aerobic 9 strava
                                Wed 12.1 7:55 MLR - 12 strava
                                Fri 10.0 7:48 Ten w/ 4 tempo strava
                                Sat 7.1 8:35 Easy like Saturday Morning strava
                                Sun 15.6 8:14 Shorter kind of long run strava
                                TOTAL RUN: 53.9   Bike Commuting: 134

                                 

                                With Thanksgiving this week I am shuffling the plan around a bit. A running buddy has 22 on his schedule for Saturday, so I'll probably join him for that. The Wed MLR will be dropped and I'll do my 16 w/8 @ MP Thursday instead and when I'm able to sleep and eat the rest of the day.