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At what distance/duration, do I start adding more than gels and water during run? (Read 293 times)

hectortrojan


    On an average I run 3-4 hours a week.  My two longest run/hikes are:

    ~4 hour, ~21 mile, ~3000 ft of elevation gain in June 2014

    ~6.5 hour, ~ 31 mile, ~2700 ft of elevation gain in Oct 2014

     

    Both these run/hikes, I carried water and had a gel every 40-45 minutes. It went fine and I recovered in 3-4 days. I got cramps in last 40 minutes or so during 50k run, but I think it is because I never experienced being on my feet for that long and experience would make it better.

     

    I am thinking about going for 7 hour or so after 3-4 months or so. Do I need to think about more than water and gels for that? If so, what do I need? Why? What works for you?

     

    I do long runs every 2-3 weeks between 2-3 hours and usually carry water and chocolate. I use gels instead of chocolates once in a while.


    Dad, Runner, Programmer

      I am far from experienced compared to a lot of folks on this site, but this is one of those things that I think is very personal and you have to find out what works for you.

       

      That being said, it seems true for most people that as you go up in distance you reach a point where you stop tolerating gels and want more "real" food. But where that line is really varies. When I was training for my one and only 50 miler, I realized when I did my 50Ks that gels weren't going to cut it. Just because after 4 or 5 hours the idea of another gel sounded awful. I ended up going in the other direction and thought I would just get by on all pbj sandwiches and ended up realizing the real problem is that after a long time I needed variety.

       

      Bottom line is you have to experiment and see what works for you. But again, I'm sure others on this site who have a ton more experience could offer their perspective.

      2015 Goal:For now, keep running!


      some call me Tim

        Some people can tolerate liquid nutrition for a very long time, and ultimately I think it'll come down to needing to experiment in training. However I haven't done any runs over 4.5 hours so I'm not going to be able to offer personal experience. There are some folks here in the main forums who can, but you should also come and ask in the 'Trailer Trash' group.

          During my 6 hour run i got to a point where i was all "forget those gels and gimme a banana" and i swear it changed my life.  So my next one i will plan for a supply minion to offer tributes of bananas as well as gels. oh and a protein shake made with coconut water, its the shiz.   I do sometimes think that whole foods have got to be easier on the  body to process and metabolize than gels and synthetic foods, but i still like to have gels in my pak for just in case.  i guess its about variety and not taking in too much at once.

          I do if for the bananas.  They are really good bananas.

          DaBurger


            Maybe I consider this backwards from most people, but I don't think of "how long can I run on x" I think of "how short can I run on x".

             

            For the marathon I think of it as a race where it is too short for real food, rather than long enough for Gu's.  Similarly (for me) a 10 mile race is too short to take Gu's.

             

            The reason people use gels in the marathon is twofold.  For most people, the marathon is too fast to comfortably digest normal food and most normal food digests too slowly to be of use during the marathon, since the glucose reaches your muscles after the race is over.  In longer events, both of these reasons become less significant.

             

            At some point, your body will become able to eat real food once the intensity of your activity is low enough.  When your reach that point, I'd suggest eating real food.

            Know thyself.

             


            Kalsarikännit

                most normal food digests too slowly to be of use during the marathon, since the glucose reaches your muscles after the race is over.  In longer events, both of these reasons become less significant. 

               

              At some point, your body will become able to eat real food once the intensity of your activity is low enough.  When your reach that point, I'd suggest eating real food.

              No and no.

               

              "Real" food that takes an eternity to get into your system may not help you during a marathon, so why should it help you during an ultra?  Are you going to sit down and wait after you eat so you can be fueled for a big climb, a fast road section, or screaming technical downhills?  No. You need that energy immediately, ESPECIALLY since you have probably burned through all of your glycogen reserves the longer you are out there.

               

              Also, the "intensity" may be lower, but putting things into your stomach that are not very simple and easy to break down (which I consider gels to be), can be a recipe for disaster.  Ultra runners and people out there for long stretches are dealing with situations that marathoners are not accustomed to. Mid-day running can bring on really high temperatures that lead to all sorts of goofy electrolyte problems that often lead to nausea. Now is not the time for complex food. Running through the night can lead to endless hours of freezing temps when the body has a really hard time heating itself (I'm thinking of 100 milers and 24+ hrs when you have been out there for 18+ hrs) and fuel becomes hugely important just to be able to not dip into the realm of hypothermia.

               

              From personal experience, gel, sports drink, and pop are the way to go. When I am getting cranky and dragging, I can feel when a gel kicks in. I know when it happens. I cannot feel this with more complex food. I also cannot measure caloric intake on the go with real food.

               

              I understand that consuming the level of gels necessary to get through a very long run can be unpleasant (and expensive).  I am usually gagging on them by the end of a race (I have a PR of somewhere in the late 40's of gu consumed in one race).  It doesn't matter, because you do what you have to do to be successful (aka suck it up, buttercup).  Training, I suggest using far less to teach your body to become a more efficient fat burner.

               

              I think real food has a place in two situations:  As a supplement to your fast fuels. There are times that my body will scream for salt or a different texture. Something chewy or crunchy is a nice change and keeps you sane. When my body is craving salt I think it is a sign (I'm sure this could be true for bananas and potassium).  Also, hot food (coffee, cup of soup, a quarter of a piping hot grilled cheese sandwich) can really help warm the body on one of those freezing cold nights.

              I want to do it because I want to do it.  -Amelia Earhart

               


              Kalsarikännit

                Also, my really, really long answer made me miss some of the Bears/Packers game.

                 

                For this I am grateful.

                I want to do it because I want to do it.  -Amelia Earhart

                 

                  I didn't really get "no and no" from all those words, though.

                  Runners run


                  Kalsarikännit

                    I didn't really get "no and no" from all those words, though.

                     

                    No, normal food that digests slowly is not a good idea, and no, with lower intensity I would not "suggest eating real food".

                     

                    All of that being said, of course this is an experiment of one.

                    I want to do it because I want to do it.  -Amelia Earhart

                     

                      So "yes and yes" then? Got it.

                      Runners run


                      Kalsarikännit

                        So "yes and yes" then? Got it.

                         

                        Where are you getting "yes" when I am saying "no"?  Are you a Florida State football player?

                         

                        You will notice that I quoted DaBurger's advice on how to fuel on a seven hour run. My no and no was directed at his two quoted fueling ideas.

                        I want to do it because I want to do it.  -Amelia Earhart

                         

                        DaBurger


                          To clarify, when I say real food, I'm thinking trail mix, granola, pop tarts etc.  not steak dinner.

                          Know thyself.

                           

                          DaBurger


                            I didn't really get "no and no" from all those words, though.

                             

                             

                            Also, the "intensity" may be lower, but putting things into your stomach that are not very simple and easy to break down (which I consider gels to be), can be a recipe for disaster.  Ultra runners and people out there for long stretches are dealing with situations that marathoners are not accustomed to. Mid-day running can bring on really high temperatures that lead to all sorts of goofy electrolyte problems that often lead to nausea. Now is not the time for complex food. Running through the night can lead to endless hours of freezing temps when the body has a really hard time heating itself (I'm thinking of 100 milers and 24+ hrs when you have been out there for 18+ hrs) and fuel becomes hugely important just to be able to not dip into the realm of hypothermia.

                             

                             

                            Less significant doesn't mean insignificant.  And if you are working hard enough that you're getting nauseous, then your body is not able to eat real food, so don't eat it.

                             

                            Since Hector's saying that he's recovering from these runs in 3-4 days, I doubt he's slamming himself as hard as he can for these runs, like you are when you're racing a 24 hour.  He has more leeway to experiment with suboptimal fuels (from an efficiency standpoint) that can make his runs more enjoyable (imo having a completely empty stomach except for Gels and gatorade after 3 hours of activity with 4 hours still to go just sucks).

                            Know thyself.

                             

                              You will notice that I quoted DaBurger's advice on how to fuel on a seven hour run. My no and no was directed at his two quoted fueling ideas.

                               

                              They weren't really fueling ideas as much as general concepts that few people would argue with. The gist was:

                              1. Marathon race pace is too fast to digest real food.
                              2. The slower you are running the more likely you are to be able to digest real food.

                              Then you said a bunch of stuff that didn't really contract either point, and even offered a couple of situations in which real food can be of benefit in very long runs.

                              Runners run


                              Kalsarikännit

                                I thought I made my points clear by pointing out a need for quick digesting fuel and not turning to real food (except as a small supplement), but debating it further would be a silly waste of time.

                                 

                                The only reason 2:4x guys that have never run past 26.2 miles come into these threads is to give advice about something they have never done (and claim to never want to do) or to mock the people that run long distances with some buffet/hiker crap. Are you going to eventually get around to this or keep us hanging?

                                I want to do it because I want to do it.  -Amelia Earhart

                                 

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