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When doubts creep in (Read 1589 times)

    Just general whining/introspection on my part, I'm currently trying to run a fast 5K in my third (10th) reincarnation as a runner, age 56. I've been back to serious about it since July 2010 when I stumbled onto Newtons, and am now trying to run even more efficiently (Chi daylong workshop in Orlando on Feb. 11).

     

    In 18 months I've gone from 29:50 to 22:10 on Nov. 12, and my pipe dream is sub-20:00. I' m kind of combining FIRST training (three hard workouts a week, with cross-training) but starting to sneak another run in there to boost mileage. 

     

    Point of all this: Today's workout was 1 mile easy, 2 tempo, 1 mile easy, 2 tempo, 1 easy.

     

    Ran the first tempo in 7:29-7:29, startlingly efficient, and right on goal. But during recovery during the fourth mile, I really almost said, "Hey, 1 x 2 is good, just bag it."  But I did the recovery and ran 7:40-7:50, somewhat mitigated by the fact that was an urban traffic run and the first was on a non-distracting loop around some soccer fields, with grass straightaways.

     

    My question, because I've simply forgotten: Is that "let's bag this workout in the middle" response fairly typical of us, particularly the older us-es? Do others get that all the time, but eventually say screw it and finish what the plan says? Did coaches in our younger (school, college) days mind the store for us on this?

     

    Does this question make any sense?

      Coaches and/or training groups, yea. I'd be surprised if anyone who does speed / tempo type workouts without feeling like that some days.

      2013 Goal: Make 3:00:16 go away - FAIL.

      2014 Goal: Make 3:00:16 go away.

        I can tell you that I'm just a few years younger than you, on my second running life, and when I originally got back into it I tried to follow the FIRST program. I felt it was too much hard running in one week, especially for us older guys that take longer to recover.  I was actually okay for a little while, but eventually I'd get to that 2nd hard workout for the week and mentally & physically I just couldn't do it.  I eventually bagged the FIRST program and found a different program. 

          I can tell you that I'm just a few years younger than you, on my second running life, and when I originally got back into it I tried to follow the FIRST program. I felt it was too much hard running in one week, especially for us older guys that take longer to recover.  I was actually okay for a little while, but eventually I'd get to that 2nd hard workout for the week and mentally & physically I just couldn't do it.  I eventually bagged the FIRST program and found a different program. 

          To somewhat what Tom had said...  Imagine this way; Ritz had run sub-13 minutes 5k.  That's 4:10 per mile pace.  So your CURRENT level, not the time you WANT to run, is about 7:05 per mile pace.  Your FIRST interval calls for 2 X 2 mile at 106% of your best 5k pace; that's about 7:30 pace.  Suppose Ritz, with 13-minutes 5000m fitness level, 106% of his 5k pace is about 4:27 per mile pace.  Would he do 2 X 2 mile at 8:54 for both 2 miles?  I'm throwing a question.  He may and, if he does, think of what % of those workout (fast runs) it is within the scheme of his total weekly mileage.  And how often he'd do that sort of intense workout.  

           

          This is one of the major reasons why I despise FIRST program.  As Tom said, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to intense.  Some people may handle it; but my argument would be; it is most probably his/her race time that was plugged in was way below his/her real potential time.  Why?  Because he/she does this kind of workout that's waaaaaaaaaaaay too hard for him/her.  

           

          Depending on when you race is; this is probably one of the worst kind of training you can do.  One of the most beautiful lessons I've ever heard was when Lorraine Moller broke 2:30 at Grandma's marathon (mind you, it was back in the 1970s and her course record stood for 20+ years); 3 days before the marathon, she was supposed to do 2 X 1-mile in 5-minutes.  She did the first one in 4:50 and said she felt like she was jogging.  So she stepped off the track.  Her coach rushed to her, thinking she got hurt or something.  "I felt so good, I just didn't want to use it up in my training.  I want to keep it till the race."


          Prince of Fatness

            Just general whining/introspection on my part, I'm currently trying to run a fast 5K in my third (10th) reincarnation as a runner, age 56. I've been back to serious about it since July 2010 when I stumbled onto Newtons, and am now trying to run even more efficiently (Chi daylong workshop in Orlando on Feb. 11).

             

            In 18 months I've gone from 29:50 to 22:10 on Nov. 12, and my pipe dream is sub-20:00. I' m kind of combining FIRST training (three hard workouts a week, with cross-training) but starting to sneak another run in there to boost mileage. 

             

            Point of all this: Today's workout was 1 mile easy, 2 tempo, 1 mile easy, 2 tempo, 1 easy.

             

            Ran the first tempo in 7:29-7:29, startlingly efficient, and right on goal. But during recovery during the fourth mile, I really almost said, "Hey, 1 x 2 is good, just bag it."  But I did the recovery and ran 7:40-7:50, somewhat mitigated by the fact that was an urban traffic run and the first was on a non-distracting loop around some soccer fields, with grass straightaways.

             

            My question, because I've simply forgotten: Is that "let's bag this workout in the middle" response fairly typical of us, particularly the older us-es? Do others get that all the time, but eventually say screw it and finish what the plan says? Did coaches in our younger (school, college) days mind the store for us on this?

             

            Does this question make any sense?

             

            Money post.

            Semi-retired.

              Well, I'm starting to have my doubts on some of FIRST, so thanks for the feedback.

               

              The long run goal pace is actually toughest for me, oddly enough, 7:57 at current fitness. A lot of work for my "long" day. I used to love my long runs, but now they're a reasonable amount of work.

               

              I like the idea of throwing cross training in there. But something else that has occurred to me is maybe stretching the three quality runs over 10 days instead of seven, with mileage in between (along with cross training).

               

              I also throw in hills every couple of weeks (in place of intervals, and it's tough to find them in Florida, but there's now this great place to run them), and fartlek (called Dynos, from Peter Tegen) in place of every other tempo. And since it's racing season in Florida, I sometimes throw a race in there in place of tempo.

               

              I think maybe I committed too much "all the way" to FIRST.  But the book is persuasive, as are some of the testimonials.

                  Well, I'm starting to have my doubts on some of FIRST, so thanks for the feedback.

                   

                  The long run goal pace is actually toughest for me, oddly enough, 7:57 at current fitness. A lot of work for my "long" day. I used to love my long runs, but now they're a reasonable amount of work.

                   

                  I like the idea of throwing cross training in there. But something else that has occurred to me is maybe stretching the three quality runs over 10 days instead of seven, with mileage in between (along with cross training).

                   

                  I also throw in hills every couple of weeks (in place of intervals, and it's tough to find them in Florida, but there's now this great place to run them), and fartlek (called Dynos, from Peter Tegen) in place of every other tempo. And since it's racing season in Florida, I sometimes throw a race in there in place of tempo.

                   

                  I think maybe I committed too much "all the way" to FIRST.  But the book is persuasive, as are some of the testimonials.

                  As far as I'm concerned, FIRST program is like someone coaching Kenyan runners.  IF you can handle such workouts, sure, you should be able to run very well.  It's not the kind of training program that would DEVELOP a runner.  You do that kind of workouts, and IF you survive, you'll do well (testimonials).  So yes, some people I'm sure would do well with it.  But, just with a quick glance at their pace chart, it looks WAAAAAAY too hard for most people.  One of the biggest purpose of a workout is that you can comfortably handle it.  It's fine to do a workout that's hard and you feel completely shuttered.  You need that kind of workout once in a while to grow.  But in most cases, probably even more than 90% of the time, workouts should be within yourself.  Another one of most beautiful lessons was; there's a guy down in TX, Al Lawrence, and he wrote a book called "Self-Coached Runner" or something like that.  Lots of schedules and I wasn't too hot with that part but everything was pretty legit.  One of the stories he shared in it was; when he was coaching this young lady and he gave her the day's workout--interval or something.  And she came back and said "But I can do this...!?"  He replied; "That's the WHOLE idea about training!!"  This actually goes to so many people out there, who try to run several 20-milers, each of them taking 3 or 4 hours to complete and you need 3 or 4 days afterwards to recover; THAT is way too much.  I get quite a few e-mails, asking about long runs of our training plan.  A lot of them only go up to 13 or 14 miles (as their longest run).  I understand they have doubt if it's enough.  Well, in ideal world, no, it's not enough.  But what would happen if we push you from, say, 1-hour being the longest you can handle and push you up to run 4-hours in 6 weeks time...???  You'll most likely to get hurt.  THAT is NOT the purpose of our training plan.  We try to provide what is most effective within the most reasonable level.  I'd rather see a runner be reasonably prepared and to get to the start line healthy than walk on the tight rope and have 3 runners out of every 5 getting injured and not even get to the start line.

                    By the way, Nobby, now that I figured out who you are, I'm very appreciative that you weighed in on this. One of the great things about this place, I guess, good coaches just offering advice.

                      I started running at age 55 and broke 20 minutes 3 months short of my 61st birthday. Admittedly I don't normally run 5k otherwise I might have got there somewhat sooner. However if you look at my log you will see that it is mostly the miles that have got me there. That and the time to build up my body from the 30 year non-runner that I was. You will have to excuse my log for the last week or so - i have had the flu!

                      2013

                      3000 miles

                      Sub 19:00 for 5K  05-03-13 Clee Prom 5K - 19:00:66 that was bloody close!

                      Sub-40:00 for 10K 17-03-13 Gainsborough 10K - 39:43

                      Sub 88:00 for HM

                       

                        I'm starting to think I'm underestimating long, slower miles in the equation. FIRST doesn't believe in them, really. Their theories are about people who have busy lives and want to get into shape efficiently. They call easy running days "empty miles."

                          I started running at age 55 and broke 20 minutes 3 months short of my 61st birthday. Admittedly I don't normally run 5k otherwise I might have got there somewhat sooner. However if you look at my log you will see that it is mostly the miles that have got me there. That and the time to build up my body from the 30 year non-runner that I was. You will have to excuse my log for the last week or so - i have had the flu!

                           

                          Very interesting, and a bit of an inspiration, too.

                           

                          My biggest race of the year is March 29, so I don't need major rethinking now, but I'm tweaking the FIRST approach as we speak. And I just bought "Healthy Intelligent Training" too.

                           

                          I kind of realize that I wasn't getting that much joy out of running sticking strictly to FIRST. And why else would I be doing this?

                          Scout7


                          CPT Curmudgeon

                            I'm starting to think I'm underestimating long, slower miles in the equation. FIRST doesn't believe in them, really. Their theories are about people who have busy lives and want to get into shape efficiently. They call easy running days "empty miles."

                             

                            Telling people there is no shortcut to running performance doesn't sell books.  Pithy statements and cherry-picked testimonials about the efficiency of a program does sell books.

                              I'm starting to think I'm underestimating long, slower miles in the equation. FIRST doesn't believe in them, really. Their theories are about people who have busy lives and want to get into shape efficiently. They call easy running days "empty miles."

                               

                              This extends to a lot of the exercise/gym industry - the whole idea seems to be that any kind of exercise is something that has to be endured for the sake of your health and/or looking good, but can't possibly be something that's enjoyable for its own sake.

                                This extends to a lot of the exercise/gym industry - the whole idea seems to be that any kind of exercise is something that has to be endured for the sake of your health and/or looking good, but can't possibly be something that's enjoyable for its own sake.

                                 

                                +1.  I actually got an advertisement for a gym in the mail this week that had the tagline, "EXERCISE SUCKS!"  Then it went on about, "But at least we're convenient, so you can get in then get back to your life."

                                "When a person trains once, nothing happens. When a person forces himself to do a thing a hundred or a thousand times, then he certainly has developed in more ways than physical. Is it raining? That doesn't matter. Am I tired? That doesn't matter, either. Then willpower will be no problem." 
                                Emil Zatopek

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