Forums >General Running>Marathon Training Pace
UM 45 Ohio 23
I have a question about the pace of runs when training, particularly for marathon training. Many of the training plans I've looked at, and the logs of marathon runners on this site, recommend long, slow runs at a pace well slower than marathon pace. I've run two marathons and in my limited experience training for them, I've always had difficulty slowing my runs to that pace.
For detail, my goal pace for the marathon is about 8:00 per mile. Most plans say my long runs should be 8:30-9:30 pace. I find it very difficult, physically and mentally, to run at the slower pace. However, when I look at some of the training logs of runners on this site, I see they do exactly that and, have better times than me in the marathon despite my similar or better times at shorter distances. I'm no speed demon, so it's not that I'm a sprinter trying to run a marathon. I'm slow-twitch all the way.
As an example, Cheeseburger recently posted a BQ time of 3:23:18. My best marathon is 3:30:45. Yet, when I reviewed Cheeseburger's training log, he ran his training miles at much slower pace than I do. He did accumulate more miles than I have and, I recognize that may be the crux of the issue. But, I'm still a little baffled, and jealous, that many runners can train at 9:00 minute pace then run a marathon at sub-8:00.
I realize this post is too long and probably has been addressed many time before so I'll stop here. But, I am interested in any thoughts on pace, how to mentally "slow-down" on long runs, and any other thoughts. I had planned on a Fall marathon but due to a severe case of bronchitis in late Aug/early Sep I'm postponing my plans until Spring of 2015. I hope to work out a better training plan and this is my start.
Thanks
"My best marathon is 3:30:45"
That's from a whole sample set of 2? Your other race times suggest you're capable of 3:15ish. You might think about adjusting your goal if you feel comfortable with it. Marathons take a bit of getting used to, so to gauge your "best" after only 2 might not really be what you have in you.
And, of course, it's always good to throw some marathon pace long runs in the training mix (a long run with some marathon pace / effort miles).
And yeah, run more miles fixes a lot, too.
MTA: marathons are stupid, and running them is dumb.
Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and roguesWe're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
He did accumulate more miles than I have and, I recognize that may be the crux of the issue.
I am not any kind of expert, and I'm sure others who are will comment further, but I would guess this is the biggest factor.
The calculators which predict a much faster marathon time based on your shorter races assume mileage volume more typical of marathon training, closer to the ~60-70mpw range. Looks like you have a handful of 50+ weeks in your history, but have generally been closer to 40.
You may likely find that when putting up higher mileage, while maintaining speed/quality work, your body will just naturally want to run more slowly on your easy & long days.
Also when you are ready to resume training, you might want to get on a more formal plan such as Pfitz or Hansons.
Dave
+1000 to this.
Yes, cheeseburger's higher mileage is the crux of the issue. The lower your mileage, the closer your marathon race pace will be to your everyday easy pace.
Based on your PRs at 5k and half marathon, your marathon pace should be more like 7:20 (if you were willing to run more mileage.) So I don't see much point in forcing yourself to run slower than 8 pace on your training runs.
If you're jealous of people who can race marathons that much faster than they train, then run more. A winter of 250 mile months and you'll run 3:10 or faster.
Runners run
Easy is not a particular pace. It's a level of effort. The question isn't whether you're running your easy runs at some predetermined pace, it's whether you're running them at an effort level that accomplishes your goal for that particular run. Is it truly, truly easy? Could you do it all day? Are you pressing the pace even subconsciously because you think it "has" to be some number that you got somewhere? Easy pace changes day to day. Yesterday's easy is today's challenging suckfest. Tomorrow is another story. Every day is different. The idea is that your easy runs allow you to do your harder workouts, and thus to run your races faster. If you're finding that your easy runs are not that different in pace from your races, you're either running your easy runs too fast, or your races too slow. It's all about effort level.
A list of my PRs in a misguided attempt to impress people that do not care.
some call me Tim
Easy is not a particular pace. It's a level of effort.
Totally. And I just want to mention that I found it helpful to think of the marathon as a race that you run as close as possible to your lactate threshold without going over, all about finding the upper end of easy without starting that ticking clock that comes with middle distance. Find that pace and train to run it by whatever method you subscribe to.
ME WEBLARG
I found it helpful to think of the marathon as a race that you run as close as possible to your lactate threshold without going over
Hmm, whatever works for you but I think this would be a disastrous apprroach for most of us. LT pace is roughly equivalent to 1-hour race pace. For me that's around 10-mile rsce pace. Obviously trying to run a marathon as close as possible to 10-mile race pace is not going to end well.
My very unscientific/almost made up observation regarding MP vs training paces from the folks I know/run with,
Upto 40 MPW, MP is slower than their easy run pace (most likely slow way down after 20 miles with a lot of walking in the later portion of the race)
40-45 MPW, MP is most likely equal to easy run pace
>50 MPW, MP is significantly faster than easy pace
This is from knowing 8-10 people and their weekly mileage and training paces. So a small sample size and these folks are all on the older side of the age groups (40-50 y/o). Most of these folks do a similar training plan with a weekly track workout, a long run which they all run together, and a non goal race almost every other weekend.
mikeymike, I can appreciate that, but fwiw staying out of LT-land means you can potentially hold pace for a *lot* longer and I didn't just pull this out of the air- I read it in an article by Pfitzinger:
"Your optimal marathon race pace (MRP) is slightly slower than your lactate threshold pace. As your slow-twitch muscle fibers fatigue during the marathon, your body begins to recruit less economical fast-twitch fibers, so your lactate threshold occurs at a slightly slower pace. Unless you are a world-class marathoner, it makes sense to plan for this reduction in economy and to pace yourself accordingly."
Granted, I'm no expert, but I know that slightly-over-the-threshold feeling and it helped me to recognize what was too much and how the definition of where that point is can change over the course of a single run.
I guess the devil is in how you define "slightly slower" and "as close as possible to".
Thanks to all who replied. I appreciate the thoughts and advice. As most pointed out, and I think I sort of knew, I need more miles than what I have done in the past. I did start to ramp my mpw to the 50-60 range this summer (got there for a couple weeks) but then came down with bronchitis and that really zapped me. I'm working back to the 30-40 range now.
I think I'll work out a plan over the winter to try and keep my miles in the 40 mpw range, or at least do enough cross-training to maintain a good level of aerobic fitness, during Jan-Feb when the weather here (Michigan) stinks. Then I can try to ramp to the 60+ mpw during Mar and April with a May marathon (Bayshore, I hope). I will also look at the Pitz and other training plans. I've mostly avoided them because my schedule makes it hard to follow them (as it does for most of us, I'm certain). But, maybe a more formal plan will keep me on track.
I think part of the issue for me is that I don't enjoy marathon training (i.e., long runs) as much as I enjoy shorter intervals and tempo runs. Part of it is the time commitment to the long runs and part is the mental discipline, I think. But, my marathon time is an itch that is demanding to be scratched.
It's funny how just posting and getting some thoughts from others, besides the small circle of runners I know here, really helps put things in perspective. Even things you probably already know but for some reason area avoiding...
wolvmar,
I feel exactly the same way as you as far as long runs. I have been training for my first marathon come a couple weeks (Hartford) and set an initial goal of 3:30. I'm following the Hanson's plan to a 'T' except my training pacing has been significantly faster, I felt the 9:00+ long run pace was terribly slow. In fact on Monday, I ran 19.6 miles home, just set a groove, and finished with a surprising 7:49 pace, with a 250ft hill (not to mention ending elevation was 100ft higher than starting). Then the next day I did some biking and trail running and felt fine! Now I have to figure out a new goal.
Good luck on your training. 50-60+ miles a week is a lot of time with a full time job and trying to maintain a social life. A formal plan REALLY helps. If I didn't have one, I would have found excuses to not to have to run.
I agree, marathon training sucks.
You might be an impatient runner. LSDs require patience , running slower than you like to run.
Try running by time alone. Tell yourself running faster doesn't help you're running for three hrs.
Run trails. You will have to run slower or fall allot.
Run with somebody slower than you for part of your long run.
When you run 6-10 miles run as fast as you want but long fast runs wear you down..
i guess I don't feel that way. But, keep in mind that without the training, and proper training at that, your marathon is pretty much guaranteed to suck. Pick your poison.