Forums >Racing>Sub 1:30 Half Marathon 2021 Edition
Problem Child
Interesting perspectives folks, thanks. I will say i always thought drinking to thirst is bullshit. It looks like I sweat about a pound every 20 minutes, about 16 oz. There is NO universe where once I hit that point, I could drink 16 oz of water every 20 minutes in order to prevent further dehydration. I would literally vomit. The maximum I can drink is probably 6 oz every 20 minutes.
Interesting perspectives folks, thanks.
I will say i always thought drinking to thirst is bullshit. It looks like I sweat about a pound every 20 minutes, about 16 oz. There is NO universe where once I hit that point, I could drink 16 oz of water every 20 minutes in order to prevent further dehydration. I would literally vomit. The maximum I can drink is probably 6 oz every 20 minutes.
Drinking to thirst and drinking to rehydrate are different. 6 ounces every 20 minutes is just over a pound of water loss prevented while running, which will help your overall performance if you can keep it down. Replenishing the water lost can be done over the rest of the day, or even hours before the run. I think it’s easier to just drink a gallon of water a day...or until you’re not thirsty anymore.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Mark - Yep, there's 20 weeks between Queenstown and Christchurch so I'll have 2 very light weeks, then probably 2 light-ish weeks before getting into it around the time of all the Christmas parties. It would be great to see you down here for the half...if you have anything left you could do an easy warm down at my MP
I've been starting to wonder 'what's next' after this current series of races. I've got North Shore 10k Run Series lined up again, which is now 4 races (Oct/Nov/Feb/Mar), mostly just for fun and because my daughter wants to do the 2k kids run series. I was thinking Buller Gorge Half next Feb, but that is tricky as my sister in law is due to have a baby around that time.
My birthday is on the day before CHC so I might be able to swing it. At the moment the focus (beyond Nationals) is really trying a bunch of fun, different, scenic races, but there's nothing that really works for me on that front in the autumn window at the moment.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
For those interested in air quality due to fire...
https://fire.airnow.gov/
This gives you a visual of the smoke travel from the West Coast fires and how it actually impacts Northeasy United States air quality.
150, and maybe even a 140, Air Quality Index is the number I use as a cutoff for running. Above 150 I won't run. Yesterday's was a 200-250 ( purple). COVID 19 aside, a mask doesn't help block out the smoke unless it's an N95 because the measurements are PM (Particulate Matter ) 2.5, and 10 microns in size.
The AQI in Brookly is a 127. I'd go run, and probably do a workout without MUCH hesitation. I'm sure Brooklyn thinks it's just smog but I've never been there to know what "normal" is for their air.
I might go for a run today. Just to see how the body feels.
Cobra Commander Keen
RP - With all the air quality issues in your area one would think there could be a viable market for a treadmill studio with fancy air filtration.
DWave - I may be in your AO soon (week of the 9th). Work is talking about flying all the people with my job title to Dulles (company headquarters) for some training/usage of a new tool we're subscribing to. Such a trip is completely unnecessary and likely counter-productive, but who am I to second-guess someone who makes more than I do?
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
RIP Milkman
I'm not sure what you're saying here. My point was if I'm losing 1 pound of sweat every 20 minutes (a little over 15 oz of water), and I wait to drink until I'm thirsty, I can't possibly keep up with that. I cannot keep down 15 oz of water every 20 minutes, or 45 ounces over an hour. I can only do something like 4-6 ounces every 20 minutes before my stomach starts feeling sick.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
If you're getting 6 ounces every 20 minutes that's more than a pound of water per hour.
It's simply not possible to replace all you sweat out while running, even with heavy electrolytes in the water (which help speed absorption of water). Drinking while running is largely about 1) getting in just enough to help stave off performance degradation due to sweat loss & 2) comfort & the mental aspect of hydration. Honestly, even in a marathon point 2 may be more important - back in the 70s it wasn't uncommon for people to run marathons without drinking at all.
My fault, I'm not being clear here.
I don't get thirsty until I've already lost a few pounds (as I imagine most of you do as well, nobody is thirsty 20 minutes into even a very hot run). So let's say that's after 4 pounds of sweat loss. Based upon my most recent run, I was losing 1 pound every 20 minutes (7 pounds over a 2:20 run), so that's about 1:20 in which sounds right.
If I wait until that point (1:20 in) to start drinking water, I can only get down 6 ounces of water every 20 minutes. However, I am continuing to sweat, so I will be losing 15 ounces of sweat every minute.
My point was: if I wait to drink when I'm thirsty, and I still have another hour to go in the run, there is no way I can keep up with the sweat loss. I'm not saying I need to replenish back to zero, but if I start getting thirsty after 4 pounds of sweat loss, I will never be able to keep my net loss to under 4 pounds to get back to "not thirsty". It will just keep getting worse as I will sweat 15 ounces, drink 6, for a net loss of 9 ounces per 20 minutes.
That's my reasoning on why "drinking to thirst" is a dumb idea in long distance running. Sure, if you can just stop whenever you get thirsty and chug a 32 oz Gatorade, I agree. But I think it's very dangerous advice for anyone running in hot conditions unless they either sweat every little or have iron stomachs and can put down 15 oz of water every 20 minutes while running.
Even though you may lose what seems to be a relatively large (according to conventional wisdom) amount of weight due to sweating during the run, are you seeing any negative effects (specifically decreased performance) due to it? No matter what, you may well end up spending a good portion of your day rehydrating, but that doesn't necessarily mean that water loss is out of line or has any deleterious effects.
I'll likely have some form of workout tomorrow morning and may weigh myself before/after just out of curiosity.
Maybe the high-sweating Kiwis can chime in here too, but for me, on very hot long run days, I've literally had to stop running after about 14 miles and walk. I now realize it's because my dehydration is too high. I've done runs where I'll drink as much as I can at a fountain, so much so I start getting stomach cramping because I'm so thirsty, and then be very thirsty just 5 minutes later. So yes, I'd say it has very bad impacts on me once I reach a point of high dehydration. The walking is also not short: the few times it's happened to me, I've had to walk for over 5 minutes to just get my heart rate and cooling down significantly. It's probably mixing with overheating, but I think it's more dehydration because the worst runs I've had are where I didn't properly hydrate pre-run.
Even this past Saturday when I lost 7 pounds, I had no appetite after my run (only ate half a dinner), had some chills, and had to sleep 10 hours to shake it all off.
I'm not necessarily looking for "optimal" performance like we're running a marathon here. I realize there is an acceptable level of dehydration and that the 2% idea may have been a myth, but my point is that once I reach a level of thirst during my run, it may be a point of no return where trying to run anything beyond a few miles after that will lead to my body shutting down.
If you're able to keep up with your thirst while running, then this probably is good advice. But it doesn't work if your sweat rate is greater than your ability to take in water and you have to run for significantly more distance than when you became thirsty.
My fault, I'm not being clear here. I don't get thirsty until I've already lost a few pounds (as I imagine most of you do as well, nobody is thirsty 20 minutes into even a very hot run). So let's say that's after 4 pounds of sweat loss. Based upon my most recent run, I was losing 1 pound every 20 minutes (7 pounds over a 2:20 run), so that's about 1:20 in which sounds right. If I wait until that point (1:20 in) to start drinking water, I can only get down 6 ounces of water every 20 minutes. However, I am continuing to sweat, so I will be losing 15 ounces of sweat every minute. My point was: if I wait to drink when I'm thirsty, and I still have another hour to go in the run, there is no way I can keep up with the sweat loss. I'm not saying I need to replenish back to zero, but if I start getting thirsty after 4 pounds of sweat loss, I will never be able to keep my net loss to under 4 pounds to get back to "not thirsty". It will just keep getting worse as I will sweat 15 ounces, drink 6, for a net loss of 9 ounces per 20 minutes. That's my reasoning on why "drinking to thirst" is a dumb idea in long distance running. Sure, if you can just stop whenever you get thirsty and chug a 32 oz Gatorade, I agree. But I think it's very dangerous advice for anyone running in hot conditions unless they either sweat every little or have iron stomachs and can put down 15 oz of water every 20 minutes while running.
How are you NOT trying to get back to zero if you're trying to replenish 4 pounds of water loss, or get that 4 pounds back by drinking water for the rest of the run?
If you're losing 6 pounds of water on a run why don't you take two 16 ounce water bottles with you and drink 2 ounces per mile. Report back with how you've felt after a run when you drank earlier in the run. I personally aim for 1 ounce per mile and on hot days 2 ounces is probably more realistic. My 7 mile runs from home would always have a 16 ounce soft flask in my had, and I'd come back with it at least half empty every day.
I'm not being an ass....but yea, I've been thirsty 20 minutes into a hot run. 2-3 miles into a run on 100 degree day...yeah....I'll take a sip or two of water. Maybe 2 ounces. Because I'm kind of thirsty at that point. I aim for
Typically I'll start drinking some water between mile 2-3.5, even if I'm not actually thirsty at the time. If I waited until I was actually thirsty I'd be carrying a bunch of water that I'd never drink since most of my runs would be over or close to over by the time I actually get thirsty.
Interesting preview of the Olympic marathon course from the internet's Mos Eisely spaceport.
Mother of Cats
Do you have to stop because your HR is skyrocketing? That would be entirely consistent with dehydration - i.e. cardiac drift. When you get dehydrated, then there's less blood to flow, so your heart needs to work harder to move what you have.
(Similar story with anemia - when your blood carries less oxygen your heart must work harder to get the same amount of oxygen to where it needs to go.)
I will note that dehydration supposedly has a training benefit. It is your kidneys that release EPO, and dehydration apparently encourages this. (article). [also obligatory comment - it's totally wrong to take EPO in an injection, but nothing wrong with training in a way that encourages your body to release it naturally)
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Keen hopefully the marathon start is better than the mens triathlon start. Watch the Boat
I'm specifically saying I'm not doing that, I'm trying to maintain myself at only 4 pounds of water loss. So if I hit 5 pounds of water loss, I need to drink one pound of water to get back to 4.
DW - I definitely notice the HR going up. I don't wear a monitor, but I've stopped and measured when I feel like this and it's 150+, sometimes up to 160, which clearly is out of range for an easy long run.
I also can see the benefit of dehydration and heat training overall. But there clearly is a downside here. I can't imagine getting to the point where I need to stop running because I'm so dehydrated is not a benefit.
I'll also say this goes to my point earlier DW - this article talks about sitting in a sauna, which makes a lot of sense. It has no negatives on your training, but positives from the EPO. It's exactly what I said about "live at altitude, train at sea level".
Which is pretty much why I always try to stay as hydrated as possible when running (though sometimes it's not possible). And then later use the sauna and rehydrate slowly.
To be clear, I'm not a fan of training dehydrated - I think the costs way way way outweigh the very minor benefits. As you've just said.