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transition from MAF to Tempo etc advice please (Read 927 times)


Slow-smooth-fast

    I am moving into the next phase of my training now , including tempos and hills etc. Is there anyone who can give me some good tempo workouts or links etc to some quality workouts? Time, duration, etc.

    "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009


    Hawt and sexy

      So far, I have been using Pfitz type plans modeled after his schedules on Advanced Marathoning. I may try a season using Daniel's Running Formula, but I have time to decide. If you don't have either book, get them, they are both good references. Oh, and you might drop a hint or two as to what you are training for, that affects answers greatly. My Advanced Marathoning idea does you no good for a 3k track race.

      I'm touching your pants.

        1.) 3 x 8 minutes on / 3 minutes off 2.) 4-5 mile tempo run 3.) 5 x 1 mile 4.) 4 x 2000m 5.) 3 x 2 mile 6.) 2 x 3 mile These are a few of my favorite things...all done btw 10k and HMP depending on where/when/energy level.

        Runners run.

        Spot


          There are several definitions for tempo runs, so it's important to be on the right page with your plan. Many people say a tempo run is done at goal race pace, and if that's what you mean then this type of tempo run is about one quarter of your race distance, and can be stretched to a third if you recover well. The second definition is what I call a threshold run, where you are running at the inflection point of your blood lactate concentration curve. This run is often described as a pace you could hold for an hour race on that day, and is normally done for 20 minutes or so, not including warmup or cooldown. For elite runners it's about HM pace, but for slower runners it begins to approach 10k pace. I run HM's at around 1:55, and 10k at around 53 min. My threshold runs are normally (currently) around 8:20 to 8:30 per mile. Threshold runs are useful to improve stamina or power. If all of your aerobic running is done at an easy pace you will develop very efficient fat burning mechanisms, but you will be uncomfortable and energy inefficient when running near your threshold, where glycogen is the preferred fuel source. However, running at threshold for only 20 or 30 min per week will help elevate the inflection point, which will in turn elevate your velocity at marathon pace. When I do a threshold run I try to find a flat section of ground where I can manage to run for 20 to 30 min at threshold pace. Warmup is critical and I will take as long as I feel I need to be comfortable. I begin my warmup at a very slow pace and then allow the pace to slowly speed up according to how I feel. I do not force the pace, as that usually causes me to feel that I'm going too fast during the threshold portion, and I will drop out before I'm done. So I normally will try to hold back and slowly speed up until I hit the right pace. Starting pace is somewhere around 7 min per km, increasing over the next half hour to around 5:15 per km. Then I hold that pace for 4 to 6 km before backing down to around 6:15 per km for the final couple of km. My total distance is usually around 10 to 14 km. 20 to 30 min warmup, 20 to 30 min at threshold, and 10 min cooldown. I do not find threshold runs to be tough runs. After a good one I'm always left with a feeling that I could have run a little bit further. The next day I'm good to go, and I am not someone who recovers quickly from hard runs. I used to do thresholds on a track until I got a good enough sense of my body to do them on the road. Nowadays I can do them on hills if I want to but I prefer to do them on flat roads, as hills make it difficult to judge effort to the level I would like.
            All I can say is be careful and wise. When I decided to "pick it up" all I picked up was a bagful of injuries. I knew better and I still got carried away.


            Imminent Catastrophe

              All I can say is be careful and wise. When I decided to "pick it up" all I picked up was a bagful of injuries. I knew better and I still got carried away.
              Good advice. Consider strides--these are short tempo runs that you mix into your training runs. For example, you might do a MAF-pace warmup for a couple of miles, then a burst of 1/2 to 2 miles at tempo pace, then a mile or so at MAF pace, then another stride, etc. It's a good way to ease into those tempo runs without so much risk of injury. You are smart to approach tempos with caution. Going from MAF pace to tempo pace puts a lot of stress on your body and should be approached with caution.

              "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

               "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

              "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

               

              √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

              Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

              Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014

                I agree you should ease into faster running. My advice is once per week initially to do slow tempos or aerobic threshold runs. This is a strong aerobic pace around 50-60 sec. slower than your current 5K race pace or around 85-88% of max HR. Start at 15-20 min and work up to 30-40 min for now. If feeling good during this run, pick up pace a bit last 5-10 min. This progressive tempo will be an excellent progression for you and great conditioning effect. Also a faster finish long run - not killer fast - but a nice pace only if feeling pretty good is a great training stimulus. Also 4-8 100M striders a couple times per week at a quick pace with full recovery will wake up the legs toward end of a run.

                Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

                Ed4


                Barefoot and happy

                  Just leave your HRM at home and go out and have fun. Now that you know what "easy" feels like, you can start relying more on listening to your body. Push the boundaries, but then return to easy running to let your body recover.
                  Curious about running barefoot? Visit the new barefoot running group.


                  Slow-smooth-fast

                    thanks guys, the thing is I dot really know my 10k pace now as I have been doing MAF training. I know my PR, should I go off that? I should I initially go out and go by feel do the intervals and then I will know what my pace is? My current 10K PR is 42:32 which was done in Sep of last year, I am hoping to shatter that now, seeing as though this was actually a TT on my own, and I am now better conditioned. Should I use this as a guide and get my training times on MCmillans site using this or would it be ok to use 40minutes as that is my goal and see if I can manage it? BTW, all I seem to be able to go off now is the fact that my Average Pace over 5 miles whilst remaining easy (MAF under 157) is between 7:45 and 8m/mile. If any of you guys could comment on my esy pace and how it correlates to a tempo pace that would be great. Also, if it matches your easy pace, it would be good to know your 10k PR?

                    "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009


                    Ham & Egger

                      If you don't know your current fitness in terms of pace, then it's probably a good idea to use the HRM. Otherwise, you'll be basing your paces off of desired fitness as opposed to current fitness, the latter of which is incumbent to know if you're going to stimulate threshold development. IMHO, it's good to rotate the types of tempo work you during a given mesocycle. So, for instance, one week you'd do 35-50:00@80% Max HR, next week, do a progression run from 70-85% max HR, third week, do a straight tempo for 25-30@85%. Then rerun. In this way, you're hitting LT development from a variety of perspectives and getting the chance to work through a variety of paces. (Tchuck said some of this in his earlier post).
                      www.tuscaloosarunner.blogspot.com
                        Eddy based on your current training pace I'd say go for around 6:30 pace and see how that feels. You want to give yourself kind of a wide range anyway--if you're feeling great you might do some of these workouts at 6:20 pace and if your kind of dragging, 6:45 pace. The bottom line is you want to get good at doing these workouts by feel anyway. You don't wan't to go off PR 10K pace unless your PR is very current, you want to use current fitness. If you have a recent 5k race you can convert that to 10k pace, otherwise base it off your training paces. FWIW, my current "easy" pace is around 7:30 - 7:45 and current 5K pace is probably 5:45. I haven't run a 10k recently enough to be useful and my 10K PR pace is way too fast--my 10K PR is faster than my current 5k fitness. I currently do the above workouts at 6:00 - 6:20 pace depending on how I'm feeling. Tempo runs and other LT type workouts are really simple if you go by feel. Just don't ever get into the red line and you'll be fine. And don't over think it. It's not critical that you run exactly at your LT pace or anything like that. I don't worry about finding a flat stretch of road--I just do these over my normal routes and I expect that hills and terrain will cause some fluctuation in my pace. I don't worry about that. Once it a while I'll do some of these around a lake where it's flat more as a test of where I'm at fitnesswise than anything.

                        Runners run.


                        Hawt and sexy

                          Oh, well if you have no clue as to current fitness, go the the LHR group and find the HADD article. Start reading and use his zones. Pfitz also gives aggressive zones in Advanced Marathoning. After MAFfing, the faster paces do feel different. My marathon pace is 2 m/m faster than my MAF pace, but I don't think that is true for everyone. And, if you had looked in the LHR group, Jesse (formation...) has a chart for MAF paces compared to other paces like marathon and 5k of course, this one is not true for everyone either. I guess I wonder why you didn't ask this in the LHR group. Are you skred we will bite? And is the 10k the goal race, or a tune-up for another race?

                          I'm touching your pants.

                            1.) 3 x 8 minutes on / 3 minutes off 2.) 4-5 mile tempo run 3.) 5 x 1 mile 4.) 4 x 2000m 5.) 3 x 2 mile 6.) 2 x 3 mile These are a few of my favorite things...all done btw 10k and HMP depending on where/when/energy level.
                            Quick high-jack - sorry Eddy. Mike, in these workouts, how long are the recovery periods? At what pace? I'm looking to do more speed work but I've lost the use of my track. You know I love my intervals, but the main reason is that they're simple to keep track of; run 800m/jog 400m, etc. I need to do it on the road now, and I like the looks of these ... just not sure what to do between reps. And what's the total distance on these? Are they part of longer runs? Also - I know you do the strides a lot - what distance/time and how long of a recovery in between? Modified: because "their" and "they're" and "there" are apparently different words. Who knew?
                            E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
                            -----------------------------

                              JK, I usually do 2 minute recoveries between the long intervals. Some of the really long ones (like 2 mile reps) I might make it 3 minutes. I also don't recovery jog them, I try to keep them about my normal easy pace. So obviously you can't be shattering yourself on the reps--you need to keep them under control. Until I had a Garmin I used to do all "time" workouts; 3 x 8 minutes, 3 x 10 minutes, 6 x 4 minutes, 4 x 6 minutes, 30 minute tempos, etc. The Garmin enables me to program things like 4 x 2 miles with 3:00 recovery jogs and just do them anywhere on any stretch of road. I do all of the above during "longish" runs. Usually a 10 mile run is the minimum, sometimes a lot longer, and I do a longish warmup--generally 4 miles or so. For strides I usually do 40 seconds to a minute jogs in between.

                              Runners run.


                              Slow-smooth-fast

                                Eddy based on your current training pace I'd say go for around 6:30 pace and see how that feels. You want to give yourself kind of a wide range anyway--if you're feeling great you might do some of these workouts at 6:20 pace and if your kind of dragging, 6:45 pace. The bottom line is you want to get good at doing these workouts by feel anyway. You don't wan't to go off PR 10K pace unless your PR is very current, you want to use current fitness. If you have a recent 5k race you can convert that to 10k pace, otherwise base it off your training paces. FWIW, my current "easy" pace is around 7:30 - 7:45 and current 5K pace is probably 5:45. I haven't run a 10k recently enough to be useful and my 10K PR pace is way too fast--my 10K PR is faster than my current 5k fitness. I currently do the above workouts at 6:00 - 6:20 pace depending on how I'm feeling. Tempo runs and other LT type workouts are really simple if you go by feel. Just don't ever get into the red line and you'll be fine. And don't over think it. It's not critical that you run exactly at your LT pace or anything like that. I don't worry about finding a flat stretch of road--I just do these over my normal routes and I expect that hills and terrain will cause some fluctuation in my pace. I don't worry about that. Once it a while I'll do some of these around a lake where it's flat more as a test of where I'm at fitnesswise than anything.
                                I have just given one of the ideas a go. I did 5x1mile, with 2:30 recovery. I did them all round 6:27 pace, though the last one I did in 5:55. How do these fare?

                                "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

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