Forums >Racing>Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023
DW Nice race. Looks like it was a bit warm. Looking forward to the report.
RP: I beg your pardon? Recovery from ultras is easier??? I get that you're running slower so there is less shock to the muscles but you are also running so much farther.
My Week: Time: Miles: Kilos: Pace/mi: Pace/kilo:
1/9: Easy 8.5 with someone from 1:06:28 8.5 13.7 7:50 4:53
the club I'm in.
1/10: 4 miles easy, 8 X 200 on track
with full recoveries (starting every 3 min)
w/ 200 jogs
35, 35, 33, 33, 33, 32, 32, 33 52:16 6 9.6 8:43 5:26
1/11: Easy 8, upper body and
core later 1:04:41 8 12.9 8:06 5:02
1/12: Easy 8 on treadmill 1:08:24 8 12.9 8:33 5:19
w/ 900 ft of climbing
1/13: Easy 8 on treadmill,
leg strength work later 1:07:10 8 12.9 8:24 5:13
1/14: Easy 6 on treadmill
after climbing 48:25 6 9.6 8:05 5:02
1/15: 4 miles easy, 3 miles
tempo in 18:54, 3 miles easy:
all treadmill, ran tempo as
9.6 mph w/ 1% incline 1:19:16 10 16.1 7:56 4:56
Upper body later
Total: 54.5 miles, 87.7 kilometers, 7:26:38
Tempo felt more aerobically difficult than I would have liked and I planned on doing 10-12 of those 200s. Hip flexor feels 98% healed most days but now I have a bruised feeling on the ball of my right foot and the bottoms of my middle toes. Trying to stay on soft surfaces and run cautiously. Been one thing after the next lately.
Another solid base building week, that’s 3 in a row of 60+. For the metric folks, just barely made it to 100 km! The long run definitely had some hills, but felt strong overall. Ran the Mona as another mini-workout to start getting the heart rate up and legs turning over. It went...OK. Often the challenge with Mona is keeping the recoveries fast enough, and I think I did reasonably well on that. The fast parts need to get faster though. It’s hard to pay too close attention to the pace on my watch during such short reps, but I typically measure my success by total distance covered for the 20 minutes of the workout. At my best, it’s 2.9-3.0 miles. This one was 2.6. Maybe I’ll try again next week to see if I can improve on that. I’m traveling though, so things will be hit or miss.
Dave
mmerkle/RP - I have heard this many times. I think often it’s a trail vs. road thing—a trail will usually provide a softer surface and less repetitive motion.
DW: Great race! I admire your spirit and practicality even more than your AG%
RIP Milkman
+1
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
congrats, DW!
Overweight per CDC BMI
Great work DW
I had to finally change the avatar from the pool to a picture of my son and me at a race. I really like running races for myself but I absolutely love pacing my 8-year-old in races. We did the 3k today in our series which was supposed to be a tempo run for me. We got out on those single track trails, clogged up with runners and I would yell "now Nolan, pass now!". He would take off like Sonic the Hedgehog and pass like 6 people in a row. I was literally having to run through the bushes to try to pass people and not lose him. He ended up running a 7:30 pace on trails which was pretty insane given the roots/rocks on the trails and how congested they were.
One of the most satisfying things for me while pacing him is hearing the somewhat fast adults start sarcastically laughing like "you've got to be shitting me!" when they see a little kid zooming past them late in a race.
Memphis / 38 male
5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:34:47 / Full - 3:38:10
Dorothea
Good morning from South Florida.
First of all, well done darkwave. I saw that temperature and humidity and was like "you might as well have run in Miami." Really cool seeing you drop that negative split. Looking forward to the race report! Very cool that you could track her, CCK. Thanks for sharing that!
Andy, love the new profile pic and reading about the race with your son. It's amazing how kids can shoot off when you tell them without any doubt about whether they'll be able to repeat the process, hold the pace, or whatever. Sounds like a great running future for your kid, if he choses! Also, ditto darkwave, we're all adult human here (I'm assuming-I guess with the exception of Tyson), no need to censor male-specific stuff. I've got guy runners in my life to share any recommendations with.
Re: RP, mmerkle, and Dave, I also had the experience that recovery from an ultra is slightly easier, and yes, it has to do with the trails and the less intense impact through more breaks and a slower pace. However, it does take longer to build back to top speeds. I was back at fitness within 3 weeks after my last marathon. I could feel the 40 miles during my long runs and speed sessions over a month later.
Dave, well done on the almost 100k and solid training week! Same to Mark and Steve as well. Mark, nice workout! I like the reverse ladders and being able to blast off the last set. Steve, nice long run and all the best for your surgery and recovery.
mmerkle, great miles as well. Sorry to read that it's one thing to another for you... the bruising on the foot... did you change the terrain you were running on? I only remember that kind of issue from my first trail running days...
Flavio, great to see you back. Give yourself some grace after taking off 2 weeks, but looks like you're coming back to form. Interesting notes about the exercises and the shoes... I insert a few balance exercises into my post-run routine (the heel raises on the steps are a staple), but I'm not sure how I feel about barefoot shoes. I like the idea, but it's usually ended up in injury for me. Like Fishy, I've found days where I wear my supportive running shoes to be better than my feet than when I take a day off and walk around barefoot all day.
Mikkey, all my issues also tend to appear on the left side: ITBS, piriformis, PF, heel spur It's also the side where I had each of my broken bones, but also the side opposite where I had a bone removed from my hip when I was 16, so I wonder if I've been putting undue stress on the left since then... either way, a PT was able to point out things I had to do to focus on strengthening my left side. But as for shock wave therapy, it was hella expensive and did nothing for me. I don't think I would try that again.
My training this week: I have to ask what I'm missing re: 7 x 1200s question (JMac et al). My coach actually gave me 5 x 1200s, albeit at 5k-10k pace. It seemed like a good workout?
Overall, this was a solid training week for me. It started off with making up the recovery run I should have done on the 8th plus a bike commute and my first legit strength training session in the gym (the past two years I basically did body-weight exercises and the adult jungle gym in the park). Already one session of upper- and lower-body exercises worked out some kinks in my legs and helped my form in my speed workout the next day. Excited about incorporating the commute and strength on my Mondays this semester. Still planning how to get a run commute in... likely on Wednesdays. The mid-week mid-long run felt like crap, but likely because it was after my long day of teaching, being on my feet all day and not having adjusted my eating yet from non-training weeks. Trying to incorporate more solid-fuel training for the ultra, but obviously need to plan that better as well. Finally, I had a day off Friday (other than a mini-commute ride) and rounded out the week with a long run and recovery. I had 18 on the plan, but the temps dropped back into the 40s, so I took the opportunity to push a few extra miles (and honestly really did not feel like planning a route, just did a 10-mile loop twice).
Weekly for period: From: 01/09/2023 To 01/15/2023
Date
Name
mi
km
Duration
Avg/mi
Avg/km
Elevation Gain
in ft
01/09
Morning Run
3.03
4.88
00:27:02
08:55
05:32
10
Morning Ride
12.27
19.74
00:55:41
04:32
02:49
26
Afternoon Weight Training
0.00
00:28:35
00:00
0
Afternoon Ride
10.80
17.38
00:51:05
04:44
02:56
13
01/10
5 x 1200s @7:02mpm avg.
9.24
14.86
01:21:30
08:49
05:29
171
01/11
Mid-Long Run w/ Some Scrub
10.92
17.57
01:44:38
09:35
05:57
276
01/12
Progression Run
6.04
9.72
00:50:30
08:22
05:12
01/14
That wind chill though
20.35
32.74
03:04:03
09:03
05:37
95
01/15
Recovery Run
5.70
9.17
00:53:17
09:21
05:49
72
Total distance: 55.3 miles running, 26.7 cycling
Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.
Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.
Mother of Cats
Hi all - thanks for following and cheering virtually. Here's a link to my race report.
The short version is - it was warm but not awful; my gait was really good in the middle of the race but the neuro issues flared at the end and those slowed me more than the warmth or fatigue. Overall, I was still satisfied with it - I ran two minutes slower than Chicago but after factoring in the fact that this race was about 15-20 degrees warmer, I felt like this was a better performance than Chicago and an indication that things are trending the right way.
My week:
55 miles running and 1 hour pool-running.
M: upper body weights/core and 1 hour pool-runningT: 8 miles, with a track workout of 2x1200, 2x800, 400 in 5:44, 5:19, 3:24, 3:19, 1:33. Long recoveries between each. W: 9 miles very easy (9:34) in the morning (run with Supreme Cobra Commander Keen), streaming yoga midday. Th: 7 miles with 1600m at marathon effort (7:24) and light upper body weights/core. F: Off (travel plus expo)Sa: 4 miles very easy (9:50) plus drills/strides. Su: .75 shakeout, and then Houston Marathon in 3:26:24
I will try to circle back for comments.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
dw - that’s a win in my book!
Problem Child
Personally opinion of mine is you’re going slower which makes recovery easier. You’re using much larger and stronger muscles for the bulk of the work which makes the recovery easier.
mmerkle yes. I did a PR marsthon on road, and a 50 miler 7 months apart. Recovery was probably easier for the 50 miler just based on how soon I could do a normal paced run. Mine had something nuts like 9,000 ft of climbing too. Lots of hiking. I didn’t spend more than 5 mi utes at any aid station. 11:14:45 I think. Even the 50k I did last March SEEMED like it wasn’t as hard, but I was in BAD shape for that run. Walking made the left side of my ground HURT BAD, yet 2 hours of driving later I got out of the car like it was just another long run.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Darkwave - that sounds like a much better-run race considering the temperature differential. Congrats!!
Well done also to you and Keen on first forum meet-up of the year. This has reminded me I need to try and catch Piwi when I'm down his way next week.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
Darkwave I know NOTHING about the weather. I strictly looked at your heart rate and judged your race. Absolutly looks like you ran the race you would run. Sorry it was more difficult than Strava shows. You're still pretty awesome. I guess it would appear the medications and neurological things are getting better. Oh yeah....I hear there are rumors you're interested in joining the group in NYC for 2024.
dk I did 5x1200 earlier this training cycle. Around December. I blew up in spectatular fashion. It really hurt me mentally until everyone pointed out I was probably doing them too fast with too little recovery. IDK what the workout jokes were about either. Those tough mid week runs are going to help you learn a lot and you can draw on them on race day when you're exhausted. Fueling is person specific so I wish you the best of luck on sampling and testing and discovering what works for you.
Andy man...7:30/mi pace is pretty speedy. I hope I'm able to keep up with my kid if he takes up running. Thus far he's been excited about his StaCyc and I had to drop 6:30/mi pace while asking him to slow down a bit so I could keep up. The feeling of "you suck" when your son's electric bike goes silent because he's letting you catch up is so humbling.
My week.
i had no weekly goal. My ONLY goal was to get SOMETHING related to a workout in. Snow. Crap weather. Crap attitude and just a crap situation hasn't helped so Monday "Marathon Scott" decided it was time to get after it. I was actually afraid of trying 6:00/mi pace because of fears of blowing up and ruining my mental training more. Nothign like "see your'e not that fast" to mess things up more. I started at 6:20 for the first half (the point of the workout is to run fast, not blow up) then sped up to 6:00/mi pace for the second sets. 12x400. Went well and it was either raining or snowing that day. I had to dodge ice.
Wednesday was 6M and the last time I did this I had stomach pains, and failed to make it past 4 miles. I was really focused on doing 6:45/mi pace because I honestly think it's where I'm at regardless of what a spreadsheet says. Path was icy in spots, and teh wather kidn of sucked anyways. I felt good, and kept telling myself "we can go more. how about we make it to six before we start adding on milee.s" I ended up doing 8 at 6:45/mi goal pace, plus or minus a few seconds, which mentally felt REALLY good. Thusreday was a random "I'm thinking too much about too many things, and have nothing else to do, long run. Sunday...well everyone went out early Saturday to do their long run and beat the storm except ONE guy. This guy says "yeah I'll go with you. I'm looking for about 13" when I've picked up 2 miles before the group run started. It was going well until it wasnt. I was crossing the road to get to the sunny/dry side. I look back for cars and crossed my legs over each other then hit some black ice and got horizontal. The guy I was with asked if I was okay then said he wished he had a photo of it. I did too. It was funny in the "well I'm glad I'm not hurt" and "that was kind of stupid for happening" sort of way. So I ended up with 16. He even asked me how many miles I was running this week at one point and I said "right now I'm at 63." except I was wrong. I was at 68 or 69 at that point.
The StaCyc rides are because I wanted to see how fast my son's bike really was. Yellow/medium speed goes 8.9. Red/top speed goes like 15. yeah. This explains why I was dropping 6:30/mi to keep up on a slight downhill when he was doing 9 mph or faster.
DW - I enjoyed so many things about your race report. The commentary on transportation (Chipotle was the right choice), porta-pottie discussion, and then the race. I agree this race was better for you. I understand the dread with personal worst, but I think for you, the clock has reset. Frankly any time you run better than the last year is now your bogey. Forget your old times. I know you're positive about everything, but this is more of a point around even viewing this in the context of a PW. Don't do it.
DK - Jack Daniels has some insane VO2 max workouts. The most ridiculous one is in marathon training, where it's an 8 mile warmup followed by 7x1200 at 4K pace, 3 minute jogging rest, 2 mile cool down. So 18 miles with a really hard workout on 80+ MPW. I've done it a couple of times, but it destroys you. I think 5x1200 with just a normal 2 mile warmup and cool down is okay (but tough). For most of us, especially when you're 30+ and not in prime 5K age range, those kind of workouts are how you get injured.
I'll get to the rest of the weeklies in the next 2 days