Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023 (Read 545 times)

dktrotter


Dorothea

     

    Well, you don't need our permission. If you want to do it, do it, and I'm pretty sure it won't break you. It may not help you either, but if it gives you more confidence, then that has value. Or if just the accomplishment of running 16 miles makes you feel good, there's nothing wrong with that.

    Andy, this. It's probably more a mental than physical benefit at this point. Albeit, it's been a long time since I was just training for a half. Usually (as I think someone else already wrote for the 10k), I'm running a half as a part of a marathon race build-up, so those 13 miles are actually a cut back from the regular 15-22. I'd say getting at least 2 10-milers a week is better than 1 16...  and definitely getting more speedwork mixed in.

     

    Flavio, if you're not wearing some kind of night boot or Strasbourg sock at this point, may I recommend it? I was starting to get some PF over the summer again, but wore it for a few nights and it went away...

     

    Dave, it's about covering the distance, so regardless of the gravity help, you covered that distance in that time and so you can claim that PR. If it were me, I may put an asterisk by it in my head, just so that I keep the motivation to see what I'm capable of without that kind of decline. It's the same kind of thinking that's having me waver on wearing the Vaporflies for the marathon in Nov. That and the fact that I think they are the reason I got runner's knee. The tunnel sounds very challenging, as well as the overall trail experience. Missing the mile 12 aid station could be a serious problem, and imagine if something happened to someone on the course! Thanks for the report!

     

    mmerkle, kind of sad to read you're thinking of dropping the 50-miler. It's a misconception to think that going far and slow will make you slower. As one could see this past spring, I actually got a bit faster. The main drawback is that you will need more time to recover from the race... but spring is also right around the corner, so...

     

    Mark, also late congrats on the series win!

     

    PR, you're really making me want to run more hills, ha ha. I actually quite enjoy running uphill, and miss the few times I was able to get some in while in Berlin.

     

    darkwave, that was a shorter report than usual. :-) I missed some of the pre-race details! But I guess it also meant that nothing of note happened to interfere with race prep, so that part is good. It does sound like the weather was a pretty major hamper. Sorry it wasn't the best race, but it's still a solid time, great job sticking to the race plan, and I'm sure the weather in Chicago will be better! Also, I agree. 40-49 is way too wide a gap to have for one age group.

     

    I'm sure I'm missing a lot in circling back, sorry! I also missed two weeks of posting training (dumped below), but I'm pretty happy with it. Perhaps the greatest thing of note is that it's going surprisingly well, despite still being hot AF in these parts. My choice to go out between 9am and noon some days is questionable at best. I'm going to slowly add mileage on the non-long run days, and maybe run 6 instead 5 days... we'll see. I'm enjoying having my busy teaching days off from running, but I'm also missing something on those days.

     

    Weekly for period: From: 09/04/2023 To 09/10/2023

    Date

    Name

    mi

    km

    Duration

    Avg/mi

    Avg/km

    Elevation Gain 

    in ft

    09/04

    Morning Run

    6.83

    10.98

    01:00:25

    08:51

    05:30

    138

    09/05

    Warm-up and dynamic stretches

    1.21

    1.94

    00:11:05

    09:10

    05:43

    0

    09/05

    Strides + descending ladder

    6.78

    10.92

    00:56:00

    08:16

    05:08

    16

    09/06

    Afternoon Treadmill Run

    1.00

    1.61

    00:09:43

    09:43

    06:02

    210

    09/07

    Warm up and dynamic stretches

    1.14

    1.83

    00:12:02

    10:33

    06:35

    36

    09/07

    10k at too fast for MP + cool down

    7.81

    12.56

    01:05:00

    08:19

    05:11

    118

    09/09

    Oh, Saturday Sun

    15.61

    25.11

    02:20:03

    08:58

    05:35

    157

    09/10

    Recovery Run

    6.45

    10.38

    01:03:14

    09:48

    06:06

    154

    Totals: Time: 06:27:45 - ๐Ÿฆ…Imperial: 46.8 mi - Metric: 75.31 km

     

    Weekly for period: From: 09/11/2023 To 09/17/2023

    Date

    Name

    mi

    km

    Duration

    Avg/mi

    Avg/km

    Elevation Gain 

    in ft

    09/11

    Easy w/beach

    6.47

    10.42

    00:59:16

    09:10

    05:41

    148

    09/12

    5 x 1600ms

    8.56

    13.78

    01:13:04

    08:32

    05:18

    13

    09/14

    Warm-up and ABCs

    1.51

    2.43

    00:14:05

    09:20

    05:48

    39

    09/14

    10k Tempo + Cool-down

    7.78

    12.52

    01:06:26

    08:32

    05:18

    128

    09/16

    WBRRC Long Run

    18.11

    29.13

    02:41:43

    08:56

    05:33

    95

    09/17

    Recovery Run

    6.32

    10.17

    00:57:14

    09:03

    05:38

    217

    Totals: Time: 7:22:45 - ๐Ÿฆ…Imperial: 50.0 mi - Metric: 80.47 km

    Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

    Last race: Philadelphia Marathon Nov. 19. Great race conditions, though not personally. Eked out a sub 3:30 and a PR. 

    AndyTN


    Overweight per CDC BMI

       Well, you don't need our permission. If you want to do it, do it, and I'm pretty sure it won't break you. It may not help you either, but if it gives you more confidence, then that has value. Or if just the accomplishment of running 16 miles makes you feel good, there's nothing wrong with that.

      I know I don't need permission but if I am asking for recommendations and you all are going to take your time to provide the best advice you can, it would be really shitty for me to just ignore it. If you told me not to race a marathon this weekend because I haven't properly prepared for it, I race that marathon anyway, I injure myself, and then come on this thread complaining for 2 months how I am injured, I don't think I would be welcome on the thread anymore. I can make the decision about distance of the longest run in a month.

       

      Re: the time constraints, aren't those largely due to your decisions in life?
      The same kids who put a strain on your schedule also bring you the joy in your life, so I'd assume it's a fair trade off ?
      Think of it like this: Would you rather have no kids and have all that extra time? I bet you wouldn't ๐Ÿ˜Ž

      Of course the wife/kids come first and I wouldn't trade them for my running hobby. Even with the ~90 minutes spent 3-4 days a week with the XC team, I could certainly get in more miles if that time was just spent on running by myself but being a coach has been so satisfying. If it was a decision of "quit coaching or you will never get another PR", I would say screw the PR's.

       

      Speaking of that last point, I will give an update on the XC team, which is 3rd-5th grades with 1 mile races. My son has had the 7:00 barrier hovering over him all last season and he finally broke it by 2 seconds in track in the spring but on a flat track is easier than a grass course with hills. The first XC race last week, he went out aggressive and ran out of gas right before the finish to have a time of 7:00 exactly. 2nd race Monday, he was a little more conservative at the start and looked more aggressive at the end but finish time was.... 7:00 exactly! He is still top 40 out of over 400 kids and scoring for his team as the 5th runner but he is frustrated for sure.

       

      The boys team is improved a lot compared to last year coming in 4th out of 33 teams the first race and 3rd this past race. They need top 5 to qualify for the state meet so they are looking to be in pretty good shape when the regional meet happens in 3 weeks. Our girls team won the state meet last year as a bit of a surprise and are actually even stronger this year. They won the first meet with a score of 45 with a margin of 79 points over 2nd place, even with our two fast 5th graders there. 2nd meet with the 5th graders, they won with 40 points and a margin of 119 points over 2nd place. We have joked about putting them in the middle school races to get better competition.

      Memphis / 37 male

      5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:36:58 / Full - 3:38:10

      Fishyone


         

         

        Miles 12-16: As was the case at Salisbury, I am at a low point in my energy. I got a brief boost from seeing my girlfriend when I went through the half way mark, but my legs no longer feel fresh. I am aware that this happened before, but I am still worried. This is not how I would like to feel at this point. I recall JMac mentioning that many successful marathons have this feature of a low point somewhere around half way, followed by a comeback. But I wouldn’t mind discussing this on the thread, because I don’t understand it. I’d rather avoid it if I can. Or should I just accept that it will happen? Anyway, once again I tell myself to stay patient, get the fuel in, and enjoy the scenery, which was very nice.

         

         Merk- I know this is OLD news by now but I read this and wanted to comment.... In my experience the races I went out conservatively (negative split races) these miles went along just fine and I concentrated on just covering ground and not letting boredom drop the pace. I had read the Pfitz books and this was his advice.

         

        In the races I was running aggressively and for a PR these miles were not "easy" in any way and I felt similar to your description.  I had thoughts like "if I feel like this now can I keep going for another 10-12 at this pace." Some races I was able to hold on for the time I wanted and others I didn't and the pace dropped off

         

        Bottom line: I don't think you can avoid it unless you slow down a bit and hope for a negative split which is VERY risky. All of my best races have been even split of slight positive.....I think you were running at/near your top line potential and you estimated your fitness perfectly. It is important to remember that feeling for your next race and that listening to your inner JMac will always lead you to the promised land

        5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

        CommanderKeen


        Cobra Commander Keen

          Flavio - I have no plans to attempt a PR at that HM. It's just a week before the big race, and between the hills and the likely high temps it's not conducive to PRs. While I'd like to 1) win, and/or 2) get a NYC qualifier there I'm not going to risk the 100 miler for this. If I can win running relatively slowly I'd do it, but if there's someone else I can beat who's running faster and/or the weather is unexpectedly good I'd push harder.


          I'm sorry about the PF issues cropping up, and hope all the work you're doing to target it works.


          DKT - Welcome back, and nice couple of weeks.


          Merkle - I meant to say this days ago, but you can absolutely do marathon-style training and do well at a 50 miler (or longer) race. SeattleMax once told me "to run a fast 100 miler train to run a fast marathon".


          I've been doing at least one big HMe tempo run per week training for these ultras, and for a month or so have been doing Norwegian-style double thresholds with the occasional 3rd workout (hill sprints) thrown in later in the week as well. If we could get decent racing weather, I'm sure I could PR any race distance I've ever done from the mile to 50 miles.

           

          Going long doesn't have to mean going slow, though most seem to take that approach.

          5k: 17:58 11/22 โ”‚ 10k: 37:55 9/21 โ”‚ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 โ”‚ M: 2:56:05 12/22

           

          Upcoming Races:

           

           

          CalBears


             

             Going long doesn't have to mean going slow, though most seem to take that approach.

             

            Slow... It is such a relative term... In our track team I have guys 10 years younger than me and their marathon PRs are slower than my recent 26.3 run which was a disaster, imho. (not bragging - just trying to clarify term slow)

             

            I posted a link some time ago about Zone 2 running and mitochondria development. What you are doing CK, is a similar case that video is talking about. You start running , get to 20 miler, running slow (weather and your state that day counts too) and repeat that for a few years. Few years of consistent training later, you still think might think you are running slow, but your 20 miler pace might be 8 minutes now, not 9. And still feels slow. But in any case, you throw couple of workouts a week and rest goes slow - that's what should work for most of us.

             

            I think you guys discussed Kipchoge's training so many times - he is the best example of running most of miles slow (of course if you running a lot of miles)

             

            Kipchoge's training

             

            If you run 80-100 miles per week and pushing it all the time, you either be burned out or, worse, injured. And injury is the worst thing that could happen to a runner trying to improve. JMac is a good example - pushing, pushing, pushing... Sorry JMac - I still love you Smile

             

            Consistency and miles are the key. Avoiding injuries is the key to consitency.

            paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

            JMac11


            RIP Milkman

              With my once every two week check-in, it seems I pick a right time!

               

              I definitely pressed a lot and ended up with a big injury. Having said that, I don't think I would have run my 2:36 without doing so. So it's one of those risk/reward things - would you be okay with being done with running? And I always said that I'd die a happy man with that 2:36 and that I was going to push to my limits to try to run something even better. And ultimately - that's what happened. Although i definitely was not running that much - it was around 80 mpw during training, lazy other times 

               

              I don't regret it for one second. I'm happy with my hobby jogging I'm currently doing. I'm still interested in coming back, but it's going to be down the road.

               

              Everybody needs to decide for themselves what's most important to them.

              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

               

              dktrotter


              Dorothea

                Thanks CK. Also, yeah, of course, 

                Quote from CommanderKeen on 9/20/2023 at 10:54 AM:

                 

                 Going long doesn't have to mean going slow, though most seem to take that approach.

                 

                Also, oh yeah! I forgot I wanted to reply to this too! :

                 

                Quote from mmerkle on 9/12/2023 at 6:13 PM:

                 

                 

                Miles 12-16: As was the case at Salisbury, I am at a low point in my energy. I got a brief boost from seeing my girlfriend when I went through the half way mark, but my legs no longer feel fresh. I am aware that this happened before, but I am still worried. This is not how I would like to feel at this point. I recall JMac mentioning that many successful marathons have this feature of a low point somewhere around half way, followed by a comeback. But I wouldn’t mind discussing this on the thread, because I don’t understand it. I’d rather avoid it if I can. Or should I just accept that it will happen? Anyway, once again I tell myself to stay patient, get the fuel in, and enjoy the scenery, which was very nice.

                 

                 Quote from Fishy:

                Merk- I know this is OLD news by now but I read this and wanted to comment.... In my experience the races I went out conservatively (negative split races) these miles went along just fine and I concentrated on just covering ground and not letting boredom drop the pace. I had read the Pfitz books and this was his advice.

                 

                In the races I was running aggressively and for a PR these miles were not "easy" in any way and I felt similar to your description.  I had thoughts like "if I feel like this now can I keep going for another 10-12 at this pace." Some races I was able to hold on for the time I wanted and others I didn't and the pace dropped off

                 

                Me: I didn't know this was actually a "normal" thing until you said it was, mmerkle, or at least that it's happened to y'all too. I experienced it for the first time really clearly in my Jacksonville marathon, and it freaked me out a bit. When I mentioned it to people who were running with me, they made me do a systems check. They asked me "Is something hurting?" "No." "Do you feel like you need to stop?" "No." "So then just keep doing what you're doing!"

                Reading what Fishy wrote, I guess at the time I was going for an aggressive pace, even if it didn't feel that way, so that may have been what led to it.

                 

                I guess the best way to deal with it is accept that it will happen and talk yourself out of letting it affect your mental game when it does.

                Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                Last race: Philadelphia Marathon Nov. 19. Great race conditions, though not personally. Eked out a sub 3:30 and a PR. 

                wcrunner2


                Are we there, yet?

                  I've been reading but rarely posting.  At this point i don't qualify as a Competitive Jerk, a jerk maybe, but that's a matter of opinion.  But I haven't been competitive this year, even in my age group, and it's going to be a while before I can be again.

                   

                  Between a-fib and the heat this summer I was barely running and walking 25 slow miles a week.  The a-fib was preventing me from getting my HR above 120, so any real quality running like tempo and intervals was impossible.  It also impacted dealing with the heat because I was getting less blood flow to the skin for cooling.

                   

                  Hopefully that's all behind me now as I had an ablation yesterday that's supposed to prevent a-fib.  The recovery process, though, may take quite a while. Two days of nothing more than what I need to walk for normal daily living.  Then I can begin slow, leisurely walking, nothing moderate or intensive for maybe a week, then gradually introduce easy jogging and progress as I feel able.  Interestingly the doctor gave me the go ahead for a 12-hour race on October 7th.  I will probably need to walk most of that, but if I can maintain something around 19:00 pace, I will move up several places on the DUV list for my AG as that would put me over 60 km. To even be considered on the fringes of competitive, I would have to run 80+ km and the best in my AG run over 100 km,

                   

                  On to other comments:

                  It looks like there's been a bunch of PRs a sub-3:00 marathon or two, some 100 mile weeks, and generally good running for most of you.

                   

                  On the subject of PRs, I prefer PB as I consider a record something verified by a sanctioning body, or race director in the case of a course record.   I would put a little mental asterisk around any PB on a significantly aided course.  I do not consider Boston significantly aided even though it is not record eligible according to World Athletics and USATF rules.  Not all point to point and net downhill courses give aid to runners.  There's a lot in between the start and finish that could possibly even slow a runner even though it's net downhill by more than the allowable amount.  Placement and grade of hills are pertinent factors.

                   2024 Races:

                        Hoping to begin racing again in March.

                   

                   

                       

                  mmerkle


                    Wcrunner Great to hear from you. Keep us posted on that race. Glad things are starting to get better.

                     

                    Andy Your son is close. Let us know when he breaks 7.

                     

                    Fishy Thanks for the input on that. Maybe it's just the way my body reacts.

                     

                    dktrotter/Commander Ok you have my attention. I definitely fell for the common misconception, although I could never back it up with evidence. I have two primary concerns:

                     

                    1. I only have roughly 8 weeks to work with before JFK and my body is taking its sweet time recovering from Erie.

                     

                    2. I would like to post a decent 10k and/or half before the end of the year and really work on my speed. I know you basically already answered this, but can I do BOTH? By speed I don't just mean tempo/lactate threshold, but also VO2 max and leg speed? And then hop in to the 50 miler assuming I also maintain high mileage (which I plan on regardless) and do some long runs?

                     

                    Cal I have embraced the slow running for my easy runs since joining this thread. For long runs, I focus more on structure than average pace, also since joining this thread. However, the average pace usually comes to around 90% of my marathon goal pace. It just is what it is, it happens naturally. For whatever reason it seems to work for me.

                     

                    JMac You can't retire we need to race. Take your time and let me know when you're ready. Oh and also RP and Commander I'd like to race you both eventually as well. Let's throw in Fishy too lol.

                      Flavio I hope your PF improves. It's one injury I have never had. Your workout today was awesome.

                      When you watch the Ingebrigtsen videos you have to wonder how much talent would be wasted in the brothers who don't run. Also in the general public out there. While I'm still surfing and fishing etc I am managing to hold onto about 30 mpw.

                      It's enough to keep me in around 19 min 5k shape which I'm challenging myself to hold onto while I'm " hobby jogging "

                       

                      Wcrunner I hope your recovery goes well. Good sensible and logical comments on PBs and aided course etc.

                       

                      Keen ha sorry yes you do fit the description of the 1 inch split seam short coached high mileage runner.

                      I guess my point is hobbyjogger is a subjective term where you could have a guy who runs sub 15 5k but doesn't get paid for running, so a hobby jogger. I think it's the word jogger that gets me as it implies slow running. In NZ we probably have less than 10 runners who aren't " hobby joggers "

                       

                      Jmac now you are definitely a hobbyjogger at present .

                       

                      Andy you are doing well to juggle all those commitments. I have 4 kids but when I started running they ranged from 5 to 15 years old. I also have very flexible work hours been self employed.

                       

                      Cal I see you have given up the run for healthy and replaced it with run to beat Mikkey  training.

                       

                      Berlin marathon this weekend right ? Should be interesting.

                      55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT

                      " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                      Somewhere in between is about right "      

                       

                      CalBears


                         

                         Cal I see you have given up the run for healthy and replaced it with run to beat Mikkey  training. 

                         

                        What run you are talking about? Mikkey is unbeatable - he is an RWOL icon - he is a descendant of Sebastian Coe - I will be just keeping Mikkey a company 

                        paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


                        Mmmm Bop

                           

                          What run you are talking about? Mikkey is unbeatable - he is an RWOL icon - he is a descendant of Sebastian Coe - I will be just keeping Mikkey a company 

                           

                          I always preferred Steve Ovett over Seb Coe…Piwi and I passed this legend’s statue during a run along Brighton seafront a few years ago!  Not the best looking statue I’ll have to admit. 

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                          flavio1980


                          Intl. correspondent

                            DK - Thanks for the recommendation, if things go south I'll definitely try that sock.

                            Keen - What's the thinking on running the half so close to the 100 then? Just a workout?

                            WCRunner - Hey, it's good to hear from you. Here's hoping the procedure puts you back on track.

                            Piwi - Older brother Kristoffer just ran a 1h14 half in Copenhagen. They've got some serious genes on that family.
                            Imagine if someone like Mark sucked at hockey and took up running instead at an early age, I'm sure it's not a leap to think he could be elite?

                             

                            Thanks re: the workout. I wanted to run close to PR pace to see how it would go.

                            Unfortunately the heart rate was way too high to inspire confidence. And I wasn't able to run at PR pace either ๐Ÿ˜

                            I'm too stubborn to accept going out in anything slower than PR pace in this race, so I guess I'm either in for a PR or a big crash and burn.

                            I just want so much to run a fast time so I can upgrade to the 2h50-3h starting block in Valencia.

                             

                            I really need to reevaluate my expectations, my current pattern of being extremely disappointed when I don't PR, and celebrating for only about 3 seconds when I do PR is clearly unsustainable ๐Ÿ˜‚

                             

                            On a side note:

                            Someone should be shooting a documentary about the legendary meeting between Cal and Mikkey.  Who's going to cross the finish line first, the Northern Irish living in England or the Russian living in the US.

                            I bet there's gonna be lots of hugs and tears ๐Ÿ˜

                            PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                            Up next: 

                            2023-12-03 - 42.5km long run

                            Tool to generate Strava weekly

                            CommanderKeen


                            Cobra Commander Keen

                              Merkle - Recovery from a 50 is just "different" than from a marathon. Yes, there's more pounding because it's a longer race, but the intensity is so much lower than a marathon that there shouldn't be as much damage. Kinda like recovering from racing a HM vs an easy 20 miler.

                              JFK is kinda late in the year, so if you're going to run another race afterwards I'd target the last two weeks of the year. That would probably be enough for recovery plus a week or two of workouts.

                              Having run Erie, that's a pretty big endurance training stimulus towards an ultra. I do think you could do workouts that maybe start on the threshold side of things and trend more towards the 10k or faster in the weeks before JFK and do well.

                              I'd ask yourself which is more important to you now - running the 50 and maybe not getting a chance at a 10k or HM PR this year, or is it the other way around? As the old saying goes, "man with one ass cannot sit on two horses". Pick which race or distance you think would mean the most and go for that one.


                              Piwi - Oh, I'm definitely a hobby jogger. Especially if you use the word to indicate "slow", since my average pace this year is slower than any other. In fact, my yearly average pace has been very steadily getting slower for basically my entire running career.


                              Flavio - This half is one I just happened to find in its inaugural year and have run every year since (I'm the only person to do so). It's part of an Oktoberfest celebration in a little German town, which is fun, and the family likes to go - this has turned it into something of a family tradition for us. So it's a combination of those things.
                              Most years the 100 and this half have been on the same weekend or the 100 has been first, so it just happens that this year there's the ready opportunity for me to run both.


                              Checkers or wreckers! Conditions are still pretty sub-optimal for racing, right? I wouldn't discount the possibility of a PR yet. Good weather + race day excitement can go a long way.

                              5k: 17:58 11/22 โ”‚ 10k: 37:55 9/21 โ”‚ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 โ”‚ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                               

                               

                                Flavio 1.14 is probably shameful time in the Ingebrigtsen family  I wonder if the youngest boy will run ? Hating on yourself when you don't PB is pretty common. Of course it gets harder as you get faster. From someone on the outside looking in though your times and training are still amazing. You won't realize until you go through an injury or layoff from running and then you will see how good your fitness was.

                                 

                                Keen we are all definitely hobbyjoggers according to letsrun users . No wildlife today I see. Can you start counting single cell organisms  Good luck with the race hope you get the W.

                                 

                                Steve have fun in Melbourne. You will now be one of those annoying half runners that mixes in with the full runners 

                                 

                                Mikkey I've watched those documentaries on YouTube about Coe and Ovette. Coe seemed to be the rich private school type and Ovett more of an average guy.

                                England have some great middle distance pedigree. Jake Wightman and Geore Mills are doing well too. Can you claim Josh Kerr from Scotland 

                                55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT

                                " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                                Somewhere in between is about right "