Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023 (Read 574 times)


Speed Surplus

    "Men: 14:45 + (Age x 3 sec)"

    I ran 18:49 at 44.


    Doing some math...

     

    Moose mug would be 16:57. Which is almost exactly my lifetime PR (run at 16 years old, unfortunately). I'd love to go sub 17 again but it's a looooooooooong way off.

    5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

    mt79


      "Men: 14:45 + (Age x 3 sec)"

      I ran 18:49 at 44.


      Doing some math...

       

      Moose mug would be 16:57. Which is almost exactly my lifetime PR (run at 16 years old, unfortunately). I'd love to go sub 17 again but it's a looooooooooong way off.


      The point is I’m cheap and I don’t want to be sending out loads of Caribou Cups or Stag Steins.  😜

      Mikkey


      Mmmm Bop

         

        You are right, it is too tough, because I meant to do 3 secs.  I was walking the dog and going back and forth on 14:45, 15, 15:15, 15:30, 15:45 + various secs per age.  Lowered the base time and forgot to raise the seconds multiplier.  Even with the new one, it might be too punishing for older runners, there is probably a speed decay that exceeds an endurance decay.  So you would need a larger than 3 sec multiplier at some point.  I also forgot to take 15 secs off for women when I did it for men.

         

        So it should have been:         

         

        Men: 14:45 + (Age x 3 sec)

        Women: 17:30 + (Age x 3 sec)

         

        I think that is more reasonable.   

         

        That would still be much harder for the oldies compared to a marathon Moose Mug!

        A 30yo would need a 16:15 which is the equivalent of a 2:38:20 marathon which is over 8min needed for a MM.

         

        A 58yo would need a 17:36 which is the equivalent of a 2:51:30 marathon which is well under a MM time.

        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

        DavePNW


           

          That would still be much harder for the oldies compared to a marathon Moose Mug!

          A 30yo would need a 16:15 which is the equivalent of a 2:38:20 marathon which is over 8min needed for a MM.

           

          A 58yo would need a 17:36 which is the equivalent of a 2:51:30 marathon which is well under a MM time.

           

          Yep. The fastest 60yo I know around here has most recently run an 18:02 and 2:49: xx.

          Dave

          wcrunner2


          Are we there, yet?

             

            You are right, it is too tough, because I meant to do 3 secs.  I was walking the dog and going back and forth on 14:45, 15, 15:15, 15:30, 15:45 + various secs per age.  Lowered the base time and forgot to raise the seconds multiplier.  Even with the new one, it might be too punishing for older runners, there is probably a speed decay that exceeds an endurance decay.  So you would need a larger than 3 sec multiplier at some point.  I also forgot to take 15 secs off for women when I did it for men.

             

            So it should have been:         

             

            Men: 14:45 + (Age x 3 sec)

            Women: 17:30 + (Age x 3 sec)

             

            I think that is more reasonable.   

             

            If I'm doing the math correctly, that would require me to run roughly a minute faster than the American record for my 5-year AG.

            To earn a Moose Mug I would have to break the American record by 20 minutes.

             

            Edited: Bad calculation on the Moose Mug. I would only have to equal the American age group record.

             2024 Races:

                  03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                  05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                  05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                  06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

             

             

                 

            Mikkey


            Mmmm Bop

               

              If I'm doing the math correctly, that would require me to run roughly a minute faster than the American record for my 5-year AG.

              To earn a Moose Mug I would have to break the American record by 20 minutes.

               

              Well that’s something to aim for next year. 

               

              With the Moose Mug you get an extra 60sec every year…so the equivalent for 5k should be around 7sec slower rather than 3sec.

              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

              mt79


                 

                Well that’s something to aim for next year.  

                 

                With the Moose Mug you get an extra 60sec every year…so the equivalent for 5k should be around 14sec slower rather than 3sec.

                Yeah I think people lose 1-2+ seconds per year mile time, so the moose mug makes sense.  I would need to add more like 5 seconds per year to make it fairer.  But my Gazelle Goblets are not participation trophies.  🏆 

                Also if you use performance enhancing footwear, you are only eligible for a Cheetah Chalice.

                Running Problem


                Problem Child

                  5k moose mug for 39 year old male (3 seconds per year)

                  1,002 English 2nds.

                   

                  sub-17. (16:39)

                  70 percenter for life. The Mug of the Mooses will forever be outside of my residential dwelling.

                  Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                  VDOT 53.37 

                  5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                  Mikkey


                  Mmmm Bop

                    Yeah I think people lose 1-2+ seconds per year mile time, so the moose mug makes sense.  I would need to add more like 5 seconds per year to make it fairer.  But my Gazelle Goblets are not participation trophies.  🏆 

                    Also if you use performance enhancing footwear, you are only eligible for a Cheetah Chalice.


                    Yeah a better option would be 14min + 5sec x age.

                     

                    30yo - 16:30 (77.89%)

                    40yo - 17:20 (78.07%)

                    50yo - 18:10 (80.41%)

                    60yo - 19:00 (83.54%)

                     

                    For female equivalent it would need to start at around 16:30min. That makes the AG% similar to the marathon Moose Mug.

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                    flavio80


                    Intl. correspondent

                       

                      Yes, definitely need a hard shell.

                      😂😂😂😂👏👏👏👏

                       

                      Also, I like Mikkey's idea for a 5K Mouse 🐭 Mug

                       

                      So, I'm gonna throw a weird question at the group now.

                      Warning: Weird question incoming ☢️

                      Warning2: I told you it'd be weird, be warned ⚠️

                      Question: What if I flip the script with regards to a marathon race. There is one flat marathon race nearly every weekend from Feb 18th all the way to the end of April.

                      What if I just train and then when I see that I'm fit, I sign up for a marathon and race it 2 weeks later?

                      The feedback that I collected here is that if I'm fit enough, it does not matter as much if it's got a couple of rollers or it rains, or the weather is slightly warmer than I wanted. And that sort of makes sense.

                      PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                      Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race

                      Tool to generate Strava weekly

                      wcrunner2


                      Are we there, yet?

                         

                        What if I just train and then when I see that I'm fit, I sign up for a marathon and race it 2 weeks later?

                        The feedback that I collected here is that if I'm fit enough, it does not matter as much if it's got a couple of rollers or it rains, or the weather is slightly warmer than I wanted. And that sort of makes sense.

                         

                        Sorry but I don't see anything weird about that.  That's how I have always preferred selecting my races.  The main reasons I don't always do that is because so many of the races I'd like to run sell out early, and for some I have to make travel arrangements well ahead of time.

                         2024 Races:

                              03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                              05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                              05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                              06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                         

                         

                             

                        mmerkle


                          😂😂😂😂👏👏👏👏

                           

                          Also, I like Mikkey's idea for a 5K Mouse 🐭 Mug

                           

                          So, I'm gonna throw a weird question at the group now.

                          Warning: Weird question incoming ☢️

                          Warning2: I told you it'd be weird, be warned ⚠️

                          Question: What if I flip the script with regards to a marathon race. There is one flat marathon race nearly every weekend from Feb 18th all the way to the end of April.

                          What if I just train and then when I see that I'm fit, I sign up for a marathon and race it 2 weeks later?

                          The feedback that I collected here is that if I'm fit enough, it does not matter as much if it's got a couple of rollers or it rains, or the weather is slightly warmer than I wanted. And that sort of makes sense.

                          Not weird in my opinion. I'm with wcrunner, if it weren't for big price increases and races filling up I might do that myself.

                           

                          Regarding the 5k Moose Mug: Is it just me or does the 5k MM feel more doable than the marathon one? Maybe it just doesn't scale as well with age as the marathon MM. For me, a 5k MM going by 14:45 + (3 x age in seconds) is a 16:12 (I'm 29). A marathon MM is 2:29 obviously, which is REALLY hard. I doubt I'll run low 16s this year but I'm confident I can break 17 by the end of 2024 if I stay healthy and consistent. I bet I could run a 5k MM in 2025. Zero chance I'll run a 2:30 in 2025.

                          DavePNW


                             

                            Question: What if I flip the script with regards to a marathon race. There is one flat marathon race nearly every weekend from Feb 18th all the way to the end of April.

                            What if I just train and then when I see that I'm fit, I sign up for a marathon and race it 2 weeks later?

                            The feedback that I collected here is that if I'm fit enough, it does not matter as much if it's got a couple of rollers or it rains, or the weather is slightly warmer than I wanted. And that sort of makes sense.

                             

                            Feel free to give it a try! Hard for me to visualize because I’ve been doing it the conventional way so long. Maybe I could see targeting a date plus or minus a couple weeks. This year I had looked at 3 races spaced by 2 week intervals. But once I get into a training plan, ~3 months out, I like to have the date nailed down. (Obviously this can change with a significant illness or injury.) The countdown of weeks during training is such a big part of the process. Incidentally, this time around—much later in the cycle than usual, I was really vascillating between races 2 weeks apart. I settled on the earlier one for a variety of reasons, but once race date nears I get REALLY anxious to get it done. Having to wait just 2 more weeks seemed like torture. Although I was kind of having FOMO, even after having a great race, because the later one was a bigger, higher-profile race. It certainly worked out for the best though—the second one was the Twin Cities Marathon that got canceled due to heat. 

                            I might flip the script back—it can be better to be slightly less fit but have ideal weather and course profile. Measuring your exact fitness level can be murky anyway.

                            Dave

                            DavePNW


                               

                              Regarding the 5k Moose Mug: Is it just me or does the 5k MM feel more doable than the marathon one? 

                               

                              It does not! I’ll never get either, but maybe it’s easier to imagine taking bigger chunks off a marathon time, while 5k improvement just seem to come in seconds.

                              Dave

                              mt79


                                 

                                What if I just train and then when I see that I'm fit, I sign up for a marathon and race it 2 weeks later?

                                The feedback that I collected here is that if I'm fit enough, it does not matter as much if it's got a couple of rollers or it rains, or the weather is slightly warmer than I wanted. And that sort of makes sense.

                                 

                                Flavio, I like that approach.  Maybe 3 weeks though, so you don't have a super long run 2 weeks before race.  I knew a sub 2:20 guy that used to do a 20 mile marathon pace test, I forget how many weeks out, I think 4 or 5?  If he didn't hit the time, he just picked another race a little later.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Regarding the 5k Moose Mug: Is it just me or does the 5k MM feel more doable than the marathon one? Maybe it just doesn't scale as well with age as the marathon MM. For me, a 5k MM going by 14:45 + (3 x age in seconds) is a 16:12 (I'm 29). A marathon MM is 2:29 obviously, which is REALLY hard. I doubt I'll run low 16s this year but I'm confident I can break 17 by the end of 2024 if I stay healthy and consistent. I bet I could run a 5k MM in 2025. Zero chance I'll run a 2:30 in 2025.

                                 

                                mmerkle - The problem with adding +3 is that is is relatively much easier for younger runners.  Any model that uses a flat + sec/min per year is going to favor the 25-40 crowd.  You don't lose 2+ sec per mile per year at that age, but you do later.  So you get a relatively easier moose mug for middle age runners.  I can see you want a harder challenge, so here you go:

                                 

                                To line it up with moose mug, I modified it to 13:00 + (6 sec x age)

                                 

                                20yo - 15:00 (85.67%) marathon moose 2:20 (86.89%)

                                30yo - 16:00 (80.32%) marathon moose 2:30 (81.1%)

                                40yo - 17:00 (79.60%) marathon moose 2:40 (78.42%)

                                50yo - 18:00 (81.16%) marathon moose 2:50 (80.21%)

                                60yo - 19:00 (83.54%) marathon moose 3:00 (82.98%)