Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023 (Read 572 times)

    Walter - welcome! The important question: Cub fan or Sox fan? There is only one right answer.

    Dave

    mmerkle


      Flavio I actually didn't pick up on that, thanks RP lol.

       

      Welcome AndyTN and NeedACleverName. 

       

      Dave Intervals on a track and easy runs are one thing, but I can't imagine doing a LR with someone else. My long runs can be a bit unpredictable, plus I like the alone time. Glad it works for you though.

       

      Question about Jack Daniels TLT sessions:

       

      So I recently came across these TLT sessions in Daniels running formula, and I'm curious what these are about and if anyone has tried them. They are first described verbally as "long runs that involve some threshold-pace running."

       

      There are a few variations (called TLT-1 etc.) all somewhat similar. The one just called TLT is described as 20 min tempo + 1 hour easy + 20 min tempo. The other variations replace the tempo with T (threshold) paced intervals. Is this supposed to be continuous and treated as a LR? Is this supposed to be some kind of double? Or is it just up to you?

       

      Adding a bit to my confusion is his opinion that T pace should be done on even, flat territory, such as a track preferably, to help maintain a consistent pace. But this could be a bit awkward to work into a LR with that structure.

      Fishyone


        Welcome Walter and Andy.

         

        MMerk- Now you've done it!!  Jmac is the Daniels king on this thread.  The killer daniels runs for me were the long runs with T-MP-T miles back to back with no recovery.  Just brutal...but they feel nice when your done.

         

        Edit- I'm gonna break out the old Daniels book tonight.  Not sure how much I'll use it this cycle but what the hell.

        5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

          Neither. Although I grew up in the Chicago area, I only got into following professional sports during my years in Boston (1987-2006). It’s team Red Sox for me.

           

          Walter - welcome! The important question: Cub fan or Sox fan? There is only one right answer.

          Post Asthma Era PRs: 5K--18:39 (Mar 2016), 10K--39:40 (Feb 2018), HM--1:28:04 (Jan 2017), MAR--2:59:12 (November 2017)

          Fishyone


            Neither. Although I grew up in the Chicago area, I only got into following professional sports during my years in Boston (1987-2006). It’s team Red Sox for me.

             

             

            Right answer!

            5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

            OMR


              good to see you back at it, NACN!

               

              Hey, there! I haven't been on here in years and I'm way overdue for anything that resembles a decent marathon training cycle or marathon. I might need some accountability from people who are way more serious about this than I have been recently.

               

              Some basic info:

              Name-Walter

              Location-Chicago, IL

              Age: 53

              Married (17 years), no kids

              Professional life: Distribution center specialist for a run specialty retailer. I'm also in my last semester of a MA program in Applied Exercise Science with a specialization in Sports Nutrition (graduate in May) and would like to earn another advanced degree in the field of nutrition in the next few years. I also have over 10 years of distance run coaching experience with the training group affiliated with my place of employment. After taking a break last year to focus on the MA program, I look forward to returning to coaching this spring.

               

              I used to love putting in lots of miles, with plenty of 2500+ mile years between 2008-2017, and spent many years chasing a sub 3 marathon. But I've run only one official marathon since reaching that goal in the fall of 2017 (a 3:35 pacing gig in the spring of 2018). I started prerequisite college course work the following fall, so running hasn't been as much of a priority since then.

               

              I signed up to run Chicago this coming October as part of a charity team, and my goal is run fast enough so that I do not need to rely on the lottery for a spot in this race in the future. You'd think that the 3:35 I need for a Chicago Qualifier at my age would be easy enough, but I've gotten fat and out of shape. My Garmin "estimates" that I'm in about 4:26 shape right now, so clearly I have some work to do. So don't be shocked if you see paces in the 11:00/mile range from me.


              Pain is my friend

                Fish- accused me trying to bury my race report on the 2022 page. I still trying to catch on the tread. So here you go for your enjoyment.

                 

                Across the years 24 hour Phoenix AZ (Updated)

                 

                There is a long and a short answer to how the race went. I don't know if I will write the long one. Since the race didn't go as planned I feel some of the details don't matter. I think the hardest part is that I put in so much work for this race and came away with a flop. I say flop because I know I can so much farther in 24 hours than I did. Many have told me I did amazing. I don’t feel that way. I am my biggest critic. I think many of you know how I feel when I say I want more and doing ok in my book is not good enough.

                 

                The race started off just as planed. The course was a 1.04 mile loop. Mostly dirt with very little elevation change. Every 4 hours we changed directions. It was like a fresh start every time we changed directions. Everything was new. I was running 9:10-9:25 pace for the first 30 milers. It was easy and relaxed. Then I notice the pace started to slip and I had to work to get it back to goal pace. I new something was off. I backed off the 9:45s for some time and then that pace was hard to keep. My feet and quads started hurting earlier than I think they should have. I had done a lot of long training runs in the Carbon X Hoka. I felt they would help me with the long miles. At mile 72 I switch my shoes to my traditional Bondi's. I have never switched my shoes during an ultra. This time it was the smart move. But the damage was done.

                 

                About the some time as I changed my shoes I did some math. Most of the time math and ultra running don't mix. I would never bet on that guy to figure do the math in a life or death situation. I still had a clear head at that time and my math was spot on. I knew at the pace I was running and the pace my body would let me run, I wouldn't make my goal. I then found myself is the darkest hole ever. I was hurt, sad, frustrated and angry all at the same time. I though about quitting and but I don't know that word. I was ready to stop and go to sleep. Many say ultras are 20% physical and 80% mental. The brain is a powerful thing. I thought about the options I had. I could call it a day or do something about it. How much suffering are you willing to endure? I have a high pain tolerance. But did I want to go on. I have cramped for 27 miles of a 50 miler just to finish. 

                 

                I text my wife and let her know I was in a dark place. That was big for me. Most of the time I keep my problems to myself. I deal with them myself and can fix it myself. To my surprise the text started to flood in. She had posted on FB that I wasn't doing well and to send me text. Well it worked. I started to look for a new reason to finish the race. Could I still win the race? I figured if I could keep a steady pace that I could.

                 

                The temperature wasn't that hot but I always felt like I was sweating. It was a bit humid. I used some ice and water to cool off. Ave was 50-65 degrees the whole race. But coming from 20 degrees and snow it felt a bit warm to me.

                 

                With 2 hours to go it started to rain. I didn't put on a rain jacket or change my cloths. Just kept running. I finished the race with 130.969 miles and first overall. So far. There was 6 days of running and you could start any of the 6 days. On the last day someone beet me by one lap to win.

                 

                I am grateful for my family and friends. I met many new ones that helped me too. I couldn't have pushed on without them. I don't know if I will do another 24 hour loop race. I will leave that decision for another day. There are so many take a ways from this race and lessoned learned.

                 

                You are never alone and you can do hard things.

                ATY 24   141.445 2019 1st

                Bear 100 22:08 2021 

                Jackpot 100 Feb 14:59 - 5th

                St George marathon Oct 2:58

                ATY 24 130.969 2022 2nd

                 

                Pulse endurance 12 hour 76.22 1ST CR

                July Backyard ultra 22 yards Win

                Sept Bear 100 24:08

                 

                Running Problem


                Problem Child

                  • Krash I personally believe you lost to someone who made it their absolute goal to wait for someone like you to come set the bar so they knew how high they had to jump to win. I cannot imagine being in a dark place for a 100 miler. Mostly because my dark places are not places I like to go. They’re scary dark and if I have to dig through that to reach the level of succes I’d want in a 10 miler I’m very concerned for me. Also, people who know me. 

                  even though you’re not happy with the results I’m really impressed. I don’t personally believe I can do your hard things.

                   

                  mmerkle continuous workout. Shifting gears between tempo/threshold/marathon is a skill. In my opinion it helps learn what the difference a few seconds makes and what going too fast feels like (easy) compared to the M pace, or other paces.

                  Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                  VDOT 53.37 

                  5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                  Fishyone


                    Krash- I hope you know I meant that I was absolutely inspired and wanted your race and effort shouted from the rooftops.   

                     

                    This is what 2023 should be about "The brain is a powerful thing. I thought about the options I had. I could call it a day or do something about it. How much suffering are you willing to endure?" 

                    5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                    zebano


                      Krash - Hell of a race IMO. I think the mentality of finding ways to keep on keeping on in those absurdly long races are the real skill and you found what you needed to do to get the best out of yourself on that day. I remember working the main aid station at a 100miler a couple years ago (20 mile loops) and a woman I know who is tough as nails came in at mile 80 collapsed in a chair and just started bawling. Her main crew member brought her some broth, looked her in the eye and said "bitch, you have 1 minute to get those tears out because Dave (her pacer) is waiting for you". They physically kicked her out, she stumbled down the hill. 5 miles latter she caught the second place lady, then they started hearing from other runners that they were only a mile behind first place. At mile 97 she took the lead. At mile 99 with a 3/4 mile hill to climb she dropped her pacer and picked up the win.

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      Sometimes I feel like the real race in the Ultra community is who can post/race the most ridiculous runs. "Oh you think that's good? 

                       

                       

                      Are Ironman world champions now considered ultra runners?

                       

                       

                      NACN - welcome. Are you planning to change jobs with the new degree?

                       

                      mmerkle - I think we completely disagree on when to run with other people. I love having people on long runs to chat with, but on speedwork it's so hard to find anyone that wants to run a controlled interval instead of pushing the pace it's absurd. Speedwork is the only way to make a treadmill bearable but even then I'd rather risk slipping outside 90% of the time.

                      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                      JMac11


                      RIP Milkman

                         

                         

                        Are Ironman world champions now considered ultra runners?

                         

                         

                        Anytime you're doing more aerobic work than a marathon, it's an ultra in my book!

                         

                        Krash - I'm curious what you think about that physical/mental split and entering that "dark" place given you've done this more than many of us. I wonder about that in a marathon. There seems to be a big argument these days around whether you can overcome those "mental" barriers, i.e. it's not actually mental but truly physical. Of course, in reality it's all one thing. But I actually think I used to think "it's just mental, get over it," then I came to "you can't overcome this stuff if your body won't let you." However, I think having that latter mindset actually allows you to quit whenever the going gets tough. So one of my goals of 2023 is to go back to the former.

                         

                        NACN - I thought you were SomethingClever who used to post here! Hopefully he doesn't come back, only because I can't have two clevers posting here! Anyway, welcome aboard.

                         

                        Merkle - you know I'm the Daniels guy and can help with this. Yes, it's all continuous. Frankly I've never done the mixed M and T workouts because they're too hard, but maybe this cycle I will try. But the TLT ones are my bread and butter. Go back to my training for Grandma's, you'll see a lot of those. My favorite workout for marathon training is 2E + 3T + 8E + 3T + 2E (numbers=miles). Very hard workout, but about as solid of an 18 mile mixed run you can do. When I knock out that last 3T at the pace I'm supposed to, I know I'm in very good shape.

                         

                        Regarding terrain, frankly I don't think you NEED to do T work on flat terrain. I try to find the flattest terrain I can find if I'm doing 2T intervals, but it's still slightly rolling. When I'm doing longer T blocks (like 3 or 4), I don't really care about it and just let my pace adjust. Having said that, it should not be super hilly. I wouldn't do a T mile on a mile that has 100 feet of elevation gain, but if it's something like 20 or 30 feet, that's no problem.

                         

                        I do think interval work at V02 max should be as flat as possible. Don't see a lot of benefit in doing it on hilly terrain, whereas T work on hilly terrain makes sense because you can do plenty of 10K-Half on rolling hills.

                        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                         

                        mmerkle


                          RP Thanks that's what I figured, and that makes a lot of sense. I don't think I did enough of that switching the last two cycles. Tempo day was tempo day. I'll have to give it a try in a few weeks.

                           

                          JMac Gotcha. I'll give this a try since I don't think I ever have. I actually love T pace in a weird way. I guess the hills aren't a bother because effort matters more?

                           

                          Zebano So if you look at the types of LRs I'm talking about, it would seem to me with all of this gear switching you would need to run with a clone of yourself to not get split up over the span of 2 + hours. I don't see how to make a LR work with other people unless you treat them as long easy runs, which as others on here know, I most certainly do not.

                           

                          If I'm doing speed work I want to be pushed, and I find it less mentally tough to tackle say 10 X 800 when there are other people with me. At the very least I think it makes it more clear to walkers that the inside lane is occupied.

                           

                          Krash As usual, WILD!

                            Fishyone--Ah, I see why you liked my answer to the baseball team question. Do you live in the city of Boston or one of the suburbs. My in-laws live in the north shore (Beverly), so we try to get out there whenever we can.

                             

                            OMR--great to see you here!

                             

                            Krash--beyond impressive, congratulations!!

                             

                            Zebano--I plan to stick with the job after I graduate in May, as this first degree with be a stepping stone my future education plans. I'll use 2023-2024 academic year to take a couple of undergrad science classes (biochem and microbiology) but hope to begin a degree program in fall of 2024 to become a registered dietitian (RD). Given the flexibility that management has given me over the last 4 years in terms of scheduling, I plan to stay working there as long as can until I finally get work as an RD (or at least until I'm doing my internship hours).

                             

                            DavePNW--glad to see another name I remember from the RWOL days. Congrats on a great race in Chicago!!

                             

                            JMac--I recall SomethingClever from way back. If he comes back, you can always go by my first name or NACN (which remind some people of the compound sodium cyanide). :-)

                             

                            mmerkle--"I have declared war on the 3 hour barrier. It's personal now. I'm tired of saying 3 something." Boy, do I know this feeling. I'm rooting for you to get it done this year!

                            Post Asthma Era PRs: 5K--18:39 (Mar 2016), 10K--39:40 (Feb 2018), HM--1:28:04 (Jan 2017), MAR--2:59:12 (November 2017)

                            Ryan Root


                              I wouldn't put too much stock in the Garmin estimates haha. I remember when I ran my half PB it said I was in 1:12 HM/16:10 5k Shape. Then I ran 1:04 (like 15:3x's per 5k) and it still said I was in 1:12/16:00 shape. Train your best, push your limits, recover appropriately and see what happens on race day!

                              Hey, there! I haven't been on here in years and I'm way overdue for anything that resembles a decent marathon training cycle or marathon. I might need some accountability from people who are way more serious about this than I have been recently.

                               

                              Some basic info:

                              Name-Walter

                              Location-Chicago, IL

                              Age: 53

                              Married (17 years), no kids

                              Professional life: Distribution center specialist for a run specialty retailer. I'm also in my last semester of a MA program in Applied Exercise Science with a specialization in Sports Nutrition (graduate in May) and would like to earn another advanced degree in the field of nutrition in the next few years. I also have over 10 years of distance run coaching experience with the training group affiliated with my place of employment. After taking a break last year to focus on the MA program, I look forward to returning to coaching this spring.

                               

                              I used to love putting in lots of miles, with plenty of 2500+ mile years between 2008-2017, and spent many years chasing a sub 3 marathon. But I've run only one official marathon since reaching that goal in the fall of 2017 (a 3:35 pacing gig in the spring of 2018). I started prerequisite college course work the following fall, so running hasn't been as much of a priority since then.

                               

                              I signed up to run Chicago this coming October as part of a charity team, and my goal is run fast enough so that I do not need to rely on the lottery for a spot in this race in the future. You'd think that the 3:35 I need for a Chicago Qualifier at my age would be easy enough, but I've gotten fat and out of shape. My Garmin "estimates" that I'm in about 4:26 shape right now, so clearly I have some work to do. So don't be shocked if you see paces in the 11:00/mile range from me.

                                Neither. Although I grew up in the Chicago area, I only got into following professional sports during my years in Boston (1987-2006). It’s team Red Sox for me.

                                 

                                 

                                Yikes! I was born and raised in the Chicago area, and I'm a lifelong diehard Cubs fan. Which may even be dumber than running.

                                Dave