Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023 (Read 572 times)

Marky_Mark_17


    I figured out in jr. high/high school that most accusations are either insults or meant to distract from something else (such as a losing/lost argument). In either case it's not really possible to fight against it (can't prove a negative, and even if you could they'd just make up something else right away). As such, it has been my philosophy to just ignore such things and continue on about my business if it ever comes up. Bonus points that this usually infuriates people because they're not used to anyone ignoring their attempts at bullying.

     

    You are a wise man, Keen, and perhaps more restrained than I.

     

    On the topic of categories, we're basically doing this already in para-sports by having a wide range of categories to reflect the relative degree of physical ability of the competitors.  If the issue with non-gender conforming athletes is that they generally have certain biological attributes that advantage them relative to biological women, there must be a way of measuring those.  It does mean you'll have to set a bunch of cut-off points, but that already happens in terms of allowable levels of various hormones, or for para athletes based on their relative physical ability (or for Masters based on age ranges).  If you're going to have separate categories for trans athletes, there probably has to be more than one because the range of people and situations there is almost as broad as what you see in para sports.  And they have to be defined based on measurable criteria - like with para athletes.

     

    That might work at the elite level... but I'd question whether it's really practical or worthwhile to have multiple categories for trans athletes for a local club athletics day?  It's rarely good for anyone when there's only a couple of people in an event.

     

    Which in a roundabout way probably gets me to where Steve and Keen are.  Two categories... one for biological females, and one for biological males and anyone who does not identify as male but has biological attributes that would provide an unfair advantage if they were to compete against biological females.  I hope the Ministry of Truth will not seek to indoctrinate me for saying that.  But equally, I don't pretend my opinion on this counts for a lot because it should really be up to the people in the relevant categories (i.e. biological women) to determine what they consider to be reasonable or fair.

     

    Womens' sport didn't die because of the controversy over Caster Semenya and it won't die here either, it's just one of those highly provocative topics that everyone has an opinion on, whether or not it directly affects them.  There's not that many athletes that are actually causing this controversy, it's just the high level of focus on the ones that are, and the fact it's a lightning rod for people's opinions on gender more broadly.

    3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

    10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

    * Net downhill course

    Last race: Maraetai HM, 10 Mar, DNF

    Up next: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr

    "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

    JMac11


    RIP Milkman

      Certainly. Why do you think we have the Moose Mug in here? Would Mikkey even have made it this far in life without one? I imagine it would have been derailed a decade ago, waking up daily in a Soho doorway by a policeman who knows his name.

      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

       

      dktrotter


      Dorothea

          There's not that many athletes that are actually causing this controversy, it's just the high level of focus on the ones that are, and the fact it's a lightning rod for people's opinions on gender more broadly.

         

        +1. I think that is a big part of it. 

         

        Flavio, “If certain males decide to become females and use chemicals towards that, it's on them to have decided to make it harder to compete against their fellow males. They can be females in all aspects of their life, not in sports 😐”

         

        First of all, I’m going to be that person to say I don’t think trans people “decide” that they’re another sex. I think they realize it. Just like gay people don’t “decide” to be gay. They just are. If you believe it’s a choice, then it’s harder to have a conversation about trans people’s rights. And that being said, I think this whole conversation is centered around women’s rights (and yay all the men who decide THIS is where they decide to be feminists [edited to clarify that I mean this generally speaking, not specifically directed at people in this forum]), but we’re not talking a lot about trans people’s rights. 

         

        As far being a woman out of the pool, a man in, I think this follows the line of what the 17/40 teammates of Lia Thomas said who, I believe, anonymously signed a letter to that effect. This of course falls in line with what I was trying to describe before, but darkwave described much more effectively, that we need distinguish between gender and sex in this conversation. But as Mark began to outline (though I’m not sure this is where you were going with it?) that’s all not stable anyway. Either way, it’s an identity that is reinforced by society. There are arguably more than two biological sexes (unless you want to argue that intersex and any other combination of variation in all the different physiological aspects is just always a mix of the two dominant sexes). For example, not all cis-women get periods. So the argument that people biologically have to fall in one or the other category is arguably incorrect. 

         

        Continuing with Lia Thomas. Does Lia still have some aspects of her physiology that are more typically male? Yes. Is she a faster swimmer than other women because of it? Maybe. Yet that maybe is the key point here. You can’t prove that it’s Lia’s former male state or a unique talent and drive that allows her to rise to the top, even as a trans athlete (note how I said even, not because). Also, by your argument, Flavio, transgender men should compete against cis-women, despite those physiological advantages that came with transition, which is literally the definition of doping, medically speaking.  So that can’t be the answer… 

         

        I do find it interesting that everyone is concerned about it being unfair towards ciswomen to have trans women compete against them, but no one discussed how its unfair towards trans men to have to compete against cis men despite all those physiological differences. 

         

        Also, I did point out that there’s a small percentage of trans athletes; however, I said that to point out that we’re fallibly assuming a major change to competition, not that this means they are a minority and don’t have a right to fairness. But good point, mmerkle, that this doesn’t change the possibility that one transgender person could potentially dominate their field. 

         

        I am pretty sure that part of the goals of living in a democracy is that the tyranny of the few can never outweigh the needs of the many, but also that the needs of the few are heard and accounted for. So this means that we can’t ignore the rights of trans-athletes to have fair competition. It’s kind of pursuing the same argument as the Special Olympics, which I’m surprised no one brought up until Mark (I started drafting this response before he posted). I do believe there may be something inherently transphobic or able-ist about sports, without any ill-intention. We seem to accept that sports are not egalitarian in the same way that we expect it in other facets of our lives. Yet we still have men vs. women’s competition and Special Olympics and Clydesdales in triathlons… so what is one more asterix or special competition at the elite level? 

         

        But now, speaking personally as a cis woman, at the amateur level, I am not that concerned about my AG award or rare OA award being earned by a trans athlete. Those things are always about who shows up. I am usually just interested in bettering my time or something else altogether. And it’s not just me being all inclusion-focussed. As I mentioned in my first post about this, I think I’d feel more uncomfortable about the WR being won or someone winning the distance at international championships over and over. But given my argument above, maybe it’s something I’d have to learn to accept. 

         

        This discussion has made me do some more research. I didn’t realize international code for all sports was dropped in 2022. Given what darkwave outlined, it makes sense that the determinations are made from sport to sport and not across the board. 

         

        Also poor Michael Phelps. I was just trying to make a point about natural biological variation. Apparently he doesn’t really know what to do with all of this, either. 

        Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

        Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

        SteveChCh


        Hot Weather Complainer

          Dorothea - "There are arguably more than two biological sexes".  Hmm.  That would take a hell of an argument!

           

          And yes, no-one is worried about trans men competing (this is a relatively new social contagion) because a big part of the issue seems to be men who aren't competitive decide they are women.  Lia Thomas for example is a classic example.

           

          I'm not sure that it's not a choice.  In some cases, yes, it's a mental health condition of which you have no choice.  In the last 5 years among younger people it is most definitely a choice being made.

           

          I think most men would agree with feminism too, as long as we're talking equal rights.

           

          Yep, it's a minefield.

           

          JMac - I really hope Mikkey gets to Boston and puts on a performance that represents his abilities.  He's been living off past glories for too long

          5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

           

          2024 Races:

          Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

          Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

          Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

          Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

          Mikkey


          Mmmm Bop

             

             

            JMac - I really hope Mikkey gets to Boston and puts on a performance that represents his abilities.  He's been living off past glories for too long

             

            My head to head with Cal has been switched to CIM.  I might even pack my Moose Mug to show the Milkman.    

            5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

            flavio80


            Intl. correspondent

               

              My head to head with Cal has been switched to CIM.  I might even pack my Moose Mug to show the Milkman.    

              You need to race Mikkey, we gotta know if you're still a BattleCat or has become a Cringer.

               

              RP - Interesting, I have not tried connecting via my phone so far, only via the computer, I'm assuming it's not easy to use on mobile then.
              I would make sense as it's a pet project from a guy who likely works full time otherwise.
              It is true that older phones/computers get slower with updates, without taking into account maliciousness, simply adjusting the software to adapt to newer hardware available sometimes makes the software less efficient with older hardware.

               

              DW - Get out of here with your facts and arguments 😎. Thanks for your contribution, I'm always impressed how you can come out and express a moderate view so clearly.

              I still can't wrap my head you you survive in the letsrun cess pool, though maybe you have an alter ego there who posts nasty stuff 😂

               

              Keen - You're absolutely right, the best thing is to not engage, but also keep an open mind for new ideas if sufficient evidence appears/observation happens.

               

              DK - With the caveat of what I already mentioned that this issue does not impact me, so I feel my opinion is not as important on the matter, I'd say I do not find a need for having the sport adapt to the very few in the transgender/intersex pool.

              Ultimately, in the broad sense of things, I find that inclusion in terms of economic opportunities is a vastly more important use of time and resources by us people, and can provide safety to a lot more people, including transgender, in poorer areas.

              I don't find it a big issue if Lia Thomas has to compete against men. I feel like this should be a non-issue, but like Mark said, it provokes strong reactions and the media/powers that be surely use it to divide us.

              PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

              Up next: no idea

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              flavio80


              Intl. correspondent

                On a separate subject, earlier today it was 12C/53F according to the weather sites. Yet I could run with a short sleeve t-shirt and be fine.

                The exact same temperature back in December and I was freezing my balls off while wearing 2 layers of long sleeve running Ts.

                It seems to me that the temperature + dew point are not sufficient to determine how cold or warm it is.

                Do note I don't tend to feel cold in extremities, rather I feel most cold in the chest and neck + head area.

                PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                Up next: no idea

                Tool to generate Strava weekly

                flavio80


                Intl. correspondent

                  @Krash, @wcrunner, @Keen, @RP, @DK and other possibly experts in hydration vests, what is your opinion of this 3L vest that weights only 75g? It seems to be what I've been looking for, and I've noticed I can use smaller flasks too than the ones they come with:

                  https://raidlight.com/en/products/sac-a-dos-de-trail-homme-ultralight-3l-made-in-france#

                  PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                  Up next: no idea

                  Tool to generate Strava weekly

                  JoshWolf


                  Part of TLC

                     

                    There is a minimum level of strength that all runners should have, and many don't hit that standard.  But, unlike power lifting, strength is not a more-is-always-better thing for running.  Aerobic ability is the "more is always better" thing for distance running.

                     

                    Equestrian sports also require physical strength - more strength than running does, frankly.  But the amount of strength needed is still a level that can be met by men (easily) and women (less easily).  And once you've got that strength, more is not better.  Skill is then the deciding factor in competition, and skill is the "more is always better" aspect of the sport.  And that's why men and women compete equally in equestrian sports, despite the importance of strength in that sport.

                     

                    I get your point (and accept it as valid ).

                     

                    "I'm not focused on overall physiology, but on distance-running specific physiology. My understanding is that VO2Max is really driven by the blood's oxygen-carrying ability, and not lung or heart size.   And hemoglobin/hematocrit levels adjust to female levels when an individual transitions from male to female, assuming enough reduction in testosterone and sufficient passage of time."

                     

                    Your response to need2tri (23-03-16, 4:34pm - lung size, heart size not really relevant regarding VO2max), however, did not convince me at first glance, so I dug a little deeper. Here's what I found:

                     

                    While hemoglobin levels respond closely to circulating testosterone levels, other cardiorespiratory system parameters are unlikely to be impacted significantly by estrogen therapy. For example, sex differences in lung size and alveolar numbers, total heart size, left ventricular size, stroke volume, and subsequent cardiac output will not be changed significantly. All of these parameters are defined by anatomical structures that were programmed by early life and early pubertal exposure to testosterone.

                     

                    https://doi.org/10.3390/ijerph19159103 

                     

                    However, hemoglobin mass is not the only parameter contributing to VO2max, where central factors such as total blood volume, heart size and contractility, and peripheral factors such as capillary supply and mitochondrial content also play a role in the final oxygen uptake [88]. 

                     

                    Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage (aclu.org)

                     

                    Even if one were to argue that the limiting factor in distance running is indeed the blood's oxygen-carrying ability, larger lungs and a larger heart / stroke volume should lead to a larger possible oxygen supply. I'm no expert in exercise physiology, but in my mind this leads to one of two outcomes. Either heart and lungs don't have to work at their maximum to ensure maximum oxygen use or gas exchange in the lungs happens faster while at the same time oxygen-rich blood circulates faster at a given heart rate. Both outcomes should represent a performance advantage.

                     

                    Of course, I don't know what to make of all this.

                     

                    MTA: Home - Independent Council on Women's Sports (iconswomen.com)

                    Don't hurry - next AG will start 2026

                    Running Problem


                    Problem Child

                      I ran 20 miles this morning and I identified every hill as annoying and an inconvenient challenge. I probably had an unfair advantage because they weren’t covered with ice, muddy, rocky, or into the wind. Now I’m going to make red pancakes because yesterday I made green pancakes.

                       

                      flavio I don’t hate it.  Two bottles with those long necks is a personal preference. It will probably be easier to drink out of them without removing the bottles.  You probably won’t need to remove them during the run to refill them either unless you’re like JMac and need a seriously high amount of water for your race.  Also, the adjustable straps on the chest will be convenient because as you drink water you can tighten up the vest because the vest will start to move as the bottles empty. The zipper pocket will be good for holding the phone I hope and if there is a pocket on the other side it can hold gels.

                       

                      I have an Ultimate Direction vest I seriously like.  Just wore it today on my 20 miler (29F starting temp) with two bottles of water.  They’re nice for holding keys and gels. It also has a 1.5L bladder on the back but I only use that for ultras.

                      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                      VDOT 53.37 

                      5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                      Marky_Mark_17


                        I ran 20 miles this morning and I identified every hill as annoying and an inconvenient challenge. I probably had an unfair advantage because they weren’t covered with ice, muddy, rocky, or into the wind. Now I’m going to make red pancakes because yesterday I made green pancakes.

                         

                         

                        My wife made a rainbow stack of pancakes for my daughter's birthday the other day.  It was a sight to behold.  I just got plain ones, of course.

                        3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                        10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                        * Net downhill course

                        Last race: Maraetai HM, 10 Mar, DNF

                        Up next: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr

                        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                        Marky_Mark_17


                          Pretty good week of training all in all.  Really felt like I started to hit a groove consistently through the middle of the week... probably the arrival of some very nice autumn running conditions helped, but it's always good for the confidence when you're hitting 4 minute k's  without really trying and the heart rate is still comfortably in the easy zone.  Saturday was a bit humid again, but still managed a decent set of progressive mile repeats on the track.  Good confidence building week, and with races in 2 and 7 weeks, it came at a good time as well.

                           

                          Weekly for period: From: 13/03/2023 To 19/03/2023

                          <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                          Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                          in m
                          13/03 That run where it was 14k of honest toil to start the week 8.73 14.05 01:01:25 07:02 04:22 51
                          14/03 That run where Vaporfly Jogger was back 9.41 15.14 00:58:36 06:14 03:52 39
                          15/03 That run where it was a perfect autumn morning 🍂 9.35 15.05 01:00:37 06:29 04:02 33
                          16/03 That run where it’s an all pink outfit for my daughter’s birthday 8.83 14.20 00:56:50 06:26 04:00 115
                          18/03 That run where it was a splash in the soup 8.71 14.01 00:52:48 06:04 03:46 77
                          19/03 That run where it’s easier to run for two hours than supervise 10x 6 year olds on an adventure playground 17.47 28.11 02:05:31 07:11 04:28 299

                          Total distance: 100.57km (62.5 rusty unicycles)

                          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                          * Net downhill course

                          Last race: Maraetai HM, 10 Mar, DNF

                          Up next: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          Fishyone


                            Well....Been hoping the wind would die down a bit for tomorrow but it's looking really windy 20+ with gusts into the 30+ range.  Looks like its a crosswind for most of the race so we'll see how that plays out.  Temps are perfect at 40 so no excuses there.

                             

                            Still gonna try for a PR.  Never blown up in a half so maybe it will be tomorrow

                             

                            Mikkey- If the showdown is now at CIM are you still coming to Boston this year?

                             

                            I think JMacs racing tomorrow but am I missing anyone else?

                            5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                            Mikkey


                            Mmmm Bop

                              Well....Been hoping the wind would die down a bit for tomorrow but it's looking really windy 20+ with gusts into the 30+ range.  Looks like its a crosswind for most of the race so we'll see how that plays out.  Temps are perfect at 40 so no excuses there.

                               

                              Still gonna try for a PR.  Never blown up in a half so maybe it will be tomorrow

                               

                              Mikkey- If the showdown is now at CIM are you still coming to Boston this year?

                               

                              I think JMacs racing tomorrow but am I missing anyone else?

                               

                              No, as I was able to change my flights…plus I can’t afford to do both!  Surprisingly there was very little difference in price even though it’s about 2000 miles further. Also I’ve only been back running again for about 6 weeks injury free so the idea of going over just to jog it wasn’t that tempting. I’m hoping to run a London GFA time for 2024 so will most likely jump into another marathon before September. Cal isn’t running Boston either but I know he’s planning on putting in some decent training for CIM.

                               

                              Good luck this morning and also to Milkman! 👍

                              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                              flavio80


                              Intl. correspondent

                                RP - Thanks for the info, yeah, the only reason I'm considering this vest is because the race won't provide water bottles on the course, so I'd have to stop at one of the 2 aid stations on the course and perhaps even wait for my turn to fill up my bottle.
                                I can't have that on a short race like this, so I'm instead betting on carrying my own water, I just need to figure out just how little water I can get away with on race day.
                                I'm currently leaning towards 2 350ml flasks, which are nearly half the size of the ones in the picture, which are 600ml.
                                The one thing I liked about that RaidLight 3L vest is that it's super light and it looks very breathable, especially the back portion. With the race being in April and starting at 10:30 am, I'll be finishing close to noon near the warmest part of the day, so I'll need all the ventilation/breathability I can get.

                                Mark - I'm just imagining your daughter seeing that stack of pancakes, it must've been the happiest day of her life, so far.
                                It looks like you're back to averaging 4 min per k and now you're running over 100km per week, so good things await you ahead for sure.

                                Fishy/Jmac - Good luck on your races!

                                 

                                me -

                                Nasty long run today as I tried to do course reconnoissance of the first 15km or so. I was not able to do the course from the start because the park where the course starts only opens at 10am. I guess now I know one of the reasons why the race has to start at 10:30 am.

                                Anyway, I Ubered to the park, then ran around the park and started the trail on the other side.

                                It's a quite interesting trail with many quick ups and downs, switch backs, bridge crossings, quite a bit of mud.

                                The Altra Lone Peak 6 performed very well on the mud either downhill or uphill.

                                However, it did really bad on the wooden boardwalk and whenever there were slippery stones.

                                I might have to try a road shoe to see if it really makes that much of a difference, I had thought the trail shoe would help more with the slippery stone surface to be honest.

                                The course has 2 nasty climbs, first one goes from 37 feet to 261feet over 1.2 miles and about 8% grade, but it's still runnable, the second one, however, goes from 40 feet to 215ft over 0.2 miles or 300m. I had to walk that one and I actually had to walk quite slowly near the top. I don't think it's mechanically feasible to run up that hill, according to RideWithGPS it varies from 15% do 20% grade.

                                I had over 400m of elevation in the end as I had to climb all the way to my pace, so now I'm confident I can deal with the race elevation.

                                I'll have to bank on the flat sections on race day cause when I get to the climbs, and especially to the downhill stairs (about 300m) and -13% grade, I might have to walk some portions and I'm likely to lose 3 to 5 minutes on that portion, at the very least.

                                At the top of nastiest hill today I was seeing 15 minutes per mile pace.

                                Weekly for period: From: 03/13/2023 To 03/19/2023

                                <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                                Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                                in ft
                                03/14 70'E 7.94 12.78 01:10:00 08:49 05:29 778
                                03/15 10'T 3'E 10'T avg 3:52/6:11 - 3:55/6:16 7.25 11.66 00:53:01 07:19 04:33 302
                                03/16 70'E - Enough citystrides for this week, I'm doing too much vert 😐 8.25 13.27 01:10:00 08:29 05:17 951
                                03/18 5x (4'I + 3'E) avg 3:44/5:58 8.04 12.93 00:58:30 07:17 04:31 436
                                03/19 1h45 Long run - Race course recon first 15km or so 11.97 19.26 01:45:02 08:46 05:27 1293

                                Total distance: 43.45mi

                                PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                                Up next: no idea

                                Tool to generate Strava weekly