RunningAHEAD - Topic: taper? sooner or later?

jsobo119

posted: 4/15/2008 at 10:09 AM

ok here is my schedule... week ending (Total miles/Long run) 4/20 (53/18) 4/27 (51/22) 5/4 (40/15) 5/11 (28/10) 5/18 marathon week tue 3, wed 6, friday 2...sunday race. is this ok... my concern is that I should taper sooner... my gut says that I should put in the extra week at 50 miles... just a reality check... folks can look at my log.

Gopher Snail

posted: 4/15/2008 at 10:17 AM
modified: 4/15/2008 at 10:18 AM

Couple questions: 1) number of previous marathons run (I assume zero based on your profile) 2) what is your goal? 3) any lingering injuries? Most people eventually go with what works for them, usually through trial and error. 3 weeks is too long for me. I feel best with a two week taper. If you have any lingering injuries, best to go with a longer taper and let them heal. If this is your first marathon, your original plan looks good and the extra 50 mile week has little benefit.

mikeymike

posted: 4/15/2008 at 10:30 AM

Later. And less. Just my .02, tapers are highly personal.

Runners run

jsobo119

posted: 4/15/2008 at 10:32 AM
modified: 4/15/2008 at 10:33 AM

Goal finish... secondary goal sub 4 hours 1st marathon. suprisingly no lingering injuries... (yoga really helping) I was not thinking of adding an extra 50 mile week... I was considering chopping out that second one and splitting the difference on the long run... so doing 20 this weeked... and doing 4 weeks of taper... which just seams too long... BUT... also I don't think I can sustain the new platue of 50 for a 4rth week... I would think I would have to back down... I guess I am just making sure my stated plan isn't crazy

dnice

posted: 4/15/2008 at 11:01 AM

Like others have said, tappers affect people differently. That said, your proposed tapper looks good to me. One thing, I really like running the day before the marathon, usually just a slow 2 miles. I find I'm a little tight after a day of not running, so I like to get in a couple of miles to stay loose. Of course, this might not be an issue for you because you practice yoga.

Marcus L S

The Greatest of All Time

posted: 4/15/2008 at 11:03 AM

Quote from mikeymike on 4/15/2008 at 10:30 AM:

Later. And less. Just my .02, tapers are highly personal.

Ditto.

all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.

MikeJA89

posted: 4/15/2008 at 11:51 AM

I'd say just to try out what you have there and see how it works for you. What works for one person may not work for you. If it doesn't work out well then just try something else next time.

Gopher Snail

posted: 4/15/2008 at 12:35 PM

Quote from jsobo119 on 4/15/2008 at 10:32 AM:

I was not thinking of adding an extra 50 mile week...

Oh, I misread and thought you were thinking of adding yet another 50 mile week during 5/4. Try what you have planned.

Jim2

posted: 4/15/2008 at 1:44 PM
modified: 4/15/2008 at 1:45 PM

I think your taper looks good for a first marathon...even a second one. Optimal marathoning is a long term learning process and there is no "one size fits all" or one approach is optimal for all. It's better to stay on the conservative side for the first one or two. Experimentation with more a aggressive taper (shorter and shallower) is better reserved for subsequent marathons after you have a basic frame of reference from the first one or two. Tapering is one of those elements of marathoning that takes experimentation to find what works best for you. Although the same general tapering concept applies to all....reduce volume and maintain running frequency and intensity...the devil is in the details. And optimal details can vary between individuals. For more comments, see Tapering.

Econo

posted: 4/16/2008 at 8:48 PM
modified: 4/16/2008 at 8:50 PM

I posted a similar question on another forum and got similar replies, "I just do Pfitz" or "it's highly personal" -- sheesh, people, give a little! Tongue

My marathon goal is 4:10. My wild-a$$ marathon goal is 4:00. I decided to taper a bit later than the traditional 3 weeks out start (last long run 3 weeks out, then taper, that is). Your taper looks fine. But looking at your view log...you ARE planning on doing that last long run, right? My taper schedule, not carved in stone: April 13-19: 21 mile run on Tuesday with MP last 5 miles (done!) a couple other runs, including a 10 mile tempo/MP run probably Saturday sprint triathlon on Sunday (2 weeks prior to marathon) Total mileage 30-40. April 20-26: not sure, but total mileage 20-25 on Sunday, perhaps 8 miles at MP April 26 - May 4: very minimal, like 10 total miles with striders.

Tchuck

SMART Approach

posted: 4/17/2008 at 9:48 AM

I feel you can get away with more of a taper if you have a higher mile base. If you are running 100 miles per week, you can drop and maintain endurance because of a huge base. If you are running 50 miles per week, I honestly feel you will lose fitness with a 3 week taper. Your legs may feel great but won't do you any good if you lose endurance. Certainly, tapers are personal and until you run more marathons and experiment, you won't know what works for you best. It is tough to figure out. Also, if extremely fatiged, that plays into it also. If feeling great, no need to do a significant or long taper if miles are low. You can't afford to. I think 2 weeks would be fine. Yes, you do need to taper but cutting intensity is much more important to get your legs back. I personally feel your taper is a bit long but if you are comfortable with it, then definitely go for it.

Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training

Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique

www.smartapproachtraining.com

Jim2

posted: 4/17/2008 at 11:02 AM

Quote from Tchuck on 4/17/2008 at 9:48 AM:

Yes, you do need to taper but cutting intensity is much more important to get your legs back.

Actually, most sources, such as Pfitzinger, Daniels, Glover and Higdon, recommend reducing volume while maintaining running frequency and intensity.

Tchuck

SMART Approach

posted: 4/17/2008 at 11:56 AM
modified: 4/17/2008 at 11:58 AM

I am certainly not going to question these excellent coaches but I truely feel lowering miles and keeping intensity is not conducive to running the best marathon for a low mileage runner. Low mileage marathoners need endurance big time. Cutting miles and keeping intensity is not what I would preach. High mileage runners certainly can do this effectively but a lower mileage runner trying to do a marathon and drastically cutting mileage will lose endurance I tend to believe. I work mainly with 5K/10k/half marathoners but the handful of runners I coached for marathoning I have maintained this philosophy and the runners were feeling fairly strong (relatively speaking) at end of the marathon because there endurance remained strong leading into marathon because I did not taper them drastically. Of course, they followed proper pacing early on also. I have not worked with extremely high mileage marathoners so I cannot comment on this nor have I made up plans as of yet for a high mileage marathoner - generally 30 - 60 mileage a week marathoners I have worked with and again just a handful so don't call me an expert in marathon training.

Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training

Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique

www.smartapproachtraining.com

JimR

posted: 4/17/2008 at 12:23 PM
modified: 4/17/2008 at 12:24 PM

How you respond in training should help you decide, but in general use 3 weeks from last really long run till race day as the benchmark and go from there. Consider your taper to really start about 8-10 days out from race day. I suggest not changing a thing between that last big run until that time. Otherwise I can only show how my best marathon effort went from my log. Note that I didn't run the 2 days prior to race day. Instead, I did a very light warmup of no more than half a mile prior to the race start. That was enough to loosen me up. I found I need all the energy I can get, and a even a couple of miles the day before cuts into that for me. The light tempo run 4 days prior had an imbedded portion maybe 30 seconds faster than marathon pace, just enough to keep me warm: 5/15/2005 Run Mississauga Marathon Race 42.2 km 3:27:30 7:55 ***** race day **** 5/12/2005 Run Justarun 8.44 km 44:46 8:33 5/11/2005 Run Light Tempo 12.19 km 1:01:22 8:07 5/10/2005 Run Justarun 8.43 km 42:20 8:05 5/9/2005 Run Justarun 12.93 km 1:03:51 7:57 5/7/2005 Run Justarun 8.44 km 42:16 8:04 **** taper really started here **** 5/6/2005 Run Justarun 14.73 km 1:17:44 8:30 5/4/2005 Run Track 12.4 km 1:00:00 7:48 5/3/2005 Run Justarun 8.44 km 42:16 8:04 5/1/2005 Run Distance 23 km 1:54:49 8:03 4/30/2005 Run Justarun 11.73 km 1:02:08 8:32 4/28/2005 Run Justarun 12.3 km 1:03:57 8:23 4/27/2005 Run Hill 10.23 km 54:57 8:39 4/26/2005 Run Justarun 6.85 km 37:38 8:51 4/24/2005 Run Distance 37.3 km 3:27:03 8:57 ****l ongest run **** 4/23/2005 Run Justarun 8.44 km 45:41 8:43 4/21/2005 Run Justarun 13.23 km 1:04:09 7:49 4/20/2005 Run Track 11.7 km 56:31 7:47 4/19/2005 Run Justarun 8.44 km 40:59 7:49 4/17/2005 Run Distance 22.5 km 2:02:20 8:46 4/16/2005 Run Tempo 16.5 km 1:19:14 7:44 4/14/2005 Run Distance 14.73 km 1:14:25 8:08 4/13/2005 Run Justarun 8.8 km 44:07 8:05 4/12/2005 Run Justarun 8.44 km 44:56 8:35 4/10/2005 Run Distance 35.4 km 3:11:30 8:43

Jim2

posted: 4/17/2008 at 6:06 PM

Quote from Tchuck on 4/17/2008 at 11:56 AM:

I am certainly not going to question these excellent coaches but I truely feel lowering miles and keeping intensity is not conducive to running the best marathon for a low mileage runner. Low mileage marathoners need endurance big time. Cutting miles and keeping intensity is not what I would preach. High mileage runners certainly can do this effectively but a lower mileage runner trying to do a marathon and drastically cutting mileage will lose endurance I tend to believe. I work mainly with 5K/10k/half marathoners but the handful of runners I coached for marathoning I have maintained this philosophy and the runners were feeling fairly strong (relatively speaking) at end of the marathon because there endurance remained strong leading into marathon because I did not taper them drastically. Of course, they followed proper pacing early on also. I have not worked with extremely high mileage marathoners so I cannot comment on this nor have I made up plans as of yet for a high mileage marathoner - generally 30 - 60 mileage a week marathoners I have worked with and again just a handful so don't call me an expert in marathon training.

I don't disagree about the depth of a taper, especially for a low mileage runner. As a 40-60 mpw marathoner, I always used a short and shallow taper. (See Tapering.) But I also maintained intensity with strides, VO2max workouts and/or LT running during the taper. I suspect that's where we disagree. Bottom line, tapering does involve reducing volume. It's a question of how long and how much. As the old adage says, "The devil is in the details." Wink

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