2019 3:20, And Beyond (Read 385 times)

Brewing Runner


Cat Disliker

     

    Brew.  Any parkruns in Reno or something?  I have the urge to race something before euchre bar.

     

    There was a 5k-hm over the weekend. I've never heard of a park run. Oh and next time you're in town go to 1590 S Wells Ave, Reno, NV 89502. Might make a cool photo.

     

    Me: started feeling sick thurdsay so I took the rest of the week off. Loaded with drugs I feel okay, but with our sub 30 temps Satuday night (down from 90F as a high on Thursday when I was scheduled for M paced work) I pulled the plug on everything. In a mental funk right now right now that SUCKS life from me (BQ time what?) and the sickness just ripped that extra 20% I needed to get out there. I know we've discussed running while sick her previously (I believe the summary is "go run unless it's a fever") but I'd rather deal with a 4 day loss of running 9 weeks out from race day than 4 weeks. My weekly mileage for this cycle will probably suck, and I'll probably miss my 2019 in 2019 goal again but I'll take that if I can COW/BOTT CIM. Cow Bott...is that now a thing?

     

    jmac heard you're having a problem with the weather. Thursday it was 88. Snowed here Saturday around 3:00. Killed a battery in a Jeep I went to drive Sunday after driving it Saturday. Really helped being "too miserable" to run,. 50F for the high today and up to 75 this weekend. It isn't just the East Coast trying to figure out what season it is. It's supposed to be 80F in Sacramento this weekend with a dew point around 35.

    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

     

    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

     

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      Actually caught a bit of the race this morning on replay.  Pretty wild.  As it stands 7 of the 10 fastest marathoners off all time have run their best times in the last 12 months.  The top 5 times ever run have all occurred in the last 12 months.

       

      That’s...something.

       

      Ah....my favorite topic.

       

      a)  this isn't the first time there have been a slew of very fast times in one year.   For example, here's the list of the fastest marathons of all time.    Look at that list, and cut out all times after 12/31/11, so that you are seeing the list as it looked at the close of 2011.  You get....

       

      1 2:03:02a Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 1 Boston 18.04.2011
      2 2:03:06a Moses Mosop KEN 17.07.85 2 Boston 18.04.2011
      3 2:03:38 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Berlin 25.09.2011
      4 2:03:42 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 Frankfurt 30.10.2011
      5 2:03:59 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 28.09.2008
      6 2:04:26 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 30.09.2007
      7 2:04:27 Duncan Kipkemboi Kibet KEN 25.04.78 1 Rotterdam 05.04.2009
      8 2:04:27 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 2 Rotterdam 05.04.2009
      9 2:04:40 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 1 London 17.04.2011
      10 2:04:48 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Rotterdam 11.04.2010

       

      So as of the end of 2011,  5 out of the top 10 marathon times, including the top 4 of all time, had been set in 2011.

       

      b) If the Vaporfly has been around for several years at this point, then how does the fact that there have been so many fast times in the past 12 months correlate to VF use?

       

      c) Upon review, it looks like Bekele has been a Nike athlete since his first marathon in Paris in 2014 (where he wore the Nike kit).  I went and pulled some pictures.  Looks like he's worn the VF for every marathon going back to 2017.  His results before yesterday in the VF:

       

      January 17 - dropped out of Dubai
      April 17 -  2nd in London in 2:05:57 (race won by Adidas athlete Daniel Wanjiru)
      April 18 - 6th in London in 2:08:53 (race won by Nike athlete Eliud Kipchoge)
      Oct 18 - dropped out of Amsterdam

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        "b) If the Vaporfly has been around for several years at this point, then how does the fact that there have been so many fast times in the past 12 months correlate to VF use?"

         

        Wasn't the Vaporfly introduced a little before the Breaking 2 thing as 'the shoe' to help those guys break 2 hours?  That would have been sometime in 2017.  Hardly what I would call 'several years'.  Are you arguing that the vaporfly isn't really a factor in these fast times we're seeing now?

        PRs

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

          I'm arguing that it's not as much as factor as some believe.  (which granted, is a vague position).

           

          I think it's a great shoe, and that's why I like to race in it.   I think it's the best racing shoe on the market right now.

           

          But..I don't think it's a magic 4% game changer cheater shoe, and I don't think it's the equivalent to the technical swimming suits.  I think it was far less of a game changer than the Adios Boost technology that preceded it; Nike was just much better at their PR campaign, and the shortage that resulted in everyone saving the shoe for their A races didn't hurt either.

           

          Watching the results of everyone on my team, I've seen very few people have magic breakthroughs after running in the shoe.  The only people in which it's made a big difference (though not quite 4%) are the heavier runners who used to race in shoes like the Brooks Beast or Asics Kayano, etc.  They no longer have to choose between adequate cushioning or a light shoe - they now have both.  And run faster for having a much lighter shoe.

           

          But...I just haven't seen the same breakthroughs in people that shifted from the Adios or the Streak to the VF.  I've seen progression in times, but it's the progression I'd expect to see regardless of someone who continues to consistently train.

           

          And so much of what people point to as "evidence" of the shoe being magic is easily countered.

           

          Edited to add: I think Kipchoge would have set the WR in the Adios or the Streak.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          Brewing Runner


          Cat Disliker

            Are you arguing that the vaporfly isn't really a factor in these fast times we're seeing now?

             

            YES. 100%. The shoes aren't making people faster. Want proof? Look at the number of people who fail wearing those same shoes and compare them to the number of people who succeed. I'm not even talking about winning a race.

            Look at the training for those who succeed and compare it to the training they've done previously.

            Oh and lets go through their blood work in a few years and see what substances they're taking that magically become banned from use.

             

            It is amazing what a placebo can do to make you want to train harder.  Maybe I need some HOKAs so I can run fast like Jim Walmsley and Chris Denucci too. The fast times we are seeing now probably have as much to do with shoes as they do global warming. Just like the book Endure says....People thought breaking the 4 minute mile was impossible. Until someone did it. Then somehow a bunch of people were breaking the 4 minute mile.

             

            Remember kiddos....wearing orange on race day makes you faster.

             

            EDIT: 2018 London...what was the weather like that day?

            1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

            5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

            10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

            Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

            Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

            Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

            *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

             

            2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

             

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

               

               

              Wasn't the Vaporfly introduced a little before the Breaking 2 thing as 'the shoe' to help those guys break 2 hours?  That would have been sometime in 2017.  Hardly what I would call 'several years'.  Are you arguing that the vaporfly isn't really a factor in these fast times we're seeing now?

               

              Also, the VF has been around longer than 2017.  We first saw it in February 2016 at the US Olympic trials.  Several runners wore them in the 2016 Rio Olympics.  It didn't hit the mass market until around the time of Breaking 2 in spring 2017, but the elites had been wearing it long before then.

               

              Feb 2016 to September 2019 is, by my math, 3.5 years.  I'd call that "several years," though it might just be potato/potahto.  Smile

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                 

                 

                EDIT: 2018 London...what was the weather like that day?

                 

                Very warm - ended in the high 60s for the elites; hotter as the day wore on.  Didn't seem to slow the elite races a ton, though it did have some effect - Kipchoge ran 2:04.  Was awful for the masses.

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                Brewing Runner


                Cat Disliker

                   

                  Very warm - ended in the high 60s for the elites; hotter as the day wore on.  Didn't seem to slow the elite races a ton, though it did have some effect - Kipchoge ran 2:04.  Was awful for the masses.

                   

                  126 minutes

                  129 minutes

                  same course.

                  So like 2-4% slower? (insert thinking emoji here)

                  1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                  5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                  10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                  Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                  Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                  Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                  *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                   

                  2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                   

                  CommanderKeen


                  Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                    So.... is NOP gear going on sale now?

                    5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:28:01 4/18 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                     

                    Upcoming Races:

                    DRC Half 11/3

                    Dallas Marathon 12/15

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                      My hunch is that NOP will remain.  Pete Julian will be the official coach, and Salazar will be behind the scenes for the next 4 years.

                       

                      From what I've seen in other sports, a ban like this means that Salazar can't show up at any races, and can't be officially listed as coach.  But...USADA's jurisdiction isn't wide enough to cover outside of competitions.  I've seen this play out many times in equestrian sports.  Trainer is banned for life - continues to make a living off of training, just doesn't go to shows and isn't officially listed as trainer.

                       

                      The biggest effect may be that other countries will refuse to support NOP, and so KoKo, Sifan Hassan, etc will lose their funding if they stay with NOP.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      berylrunner


                      Rick

                        17 miles last week testing the knee.  Yesterday I did a progression to 5k pace that felt great.  Just don't know what to do for the marathon now.  My backup plan is a local marathon in February to BQ.  I would be able to have a much better training cycle.

                         

                        09-06-19   Last One Standing

                         

                        10-05-19   St. George Marathon

                        Brewing Runner


                        Cat Disliker

                          Wait...so he was injecting a LEGAL supplement and THAT started this investigation? S30 witnesses saw him inject a legal substance that's SUPPOSED to enhance athletic performance...but Vaporflys are totally legal with all their winning and PRs.  Seems like USADA was looking for a reason to get into his medical bag and get their proof he was doping. He had testosterone in there and no reason to have it, but USADA only had athletes tell them he had it. In 4 years he's going to have a reason to have that testosterone. Better make a better rule USADA. I'm not fully convinced he was innocent, but without the details I think they went after him because whistle blowers were enough to open his case and show he had banned substances.

                           

                          I see 95 mL injections very 12.5 hours being the new red flag. TOTALLY legal, but so close to the red line people don't like it. Maybe this is why I have "a problem with authority." I see a problem with investigating legal injections as a way to prove possession with intent. Have fun pointing the finger at Alberto being "behind the scenes" because the ban isn't going to change anything. He will be linked to certain coaches and when those athletes win (or break the 2 hour marathon) it's going to be all "well 4 years ago....a leopard can't change his spots" talk.

                           

                          https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2019/09/30/alberto-salazar-dr-jeffrey-brown-doping-bans/3826670002/

                          From the article:

                          A four-year USADA investigation began after a BBC report that detailed some of Salazar’s practices, which included infusions of a legal supplement called L-carnitine that is supposed to enhance athletic performance.

                           

                          https://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/General-Information-on-IV-Infusions.pdf

                          WHAT’S THE IV RULE? • All IV infusions and/or injections of more than 100mL (~6.8 tablespoons) per 12 hour period are prohibited at all times, both in- and out-of-competition, except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions, surgical procedures or clinical investigations, without an approved Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE).

                          1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                          5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                          10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                          Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                          Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                          Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                          *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                           

                          2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                           

                          pepperjack


                          pie man

                            I don’t think NOP survives. They won’t be selling very many of those snazzy black skull singlets for a while.  So they’ll sorta reform with a new name and logo.  Heck half the group has jumped ship in the last couple years.

                             

                            Brew - parkruns are free 5ks that happen in most major metropolitan centers these days.  About all I can manage right now.  Well, unless you can enter with a toy for toys for tots like the 5k I did before Xmas.  Or if you know a race would let me enter for free cause I was a government employee during shut down like Clarksburg.

                             

                            The thing that strikes me about that 2011 list is they’re all no longer active.  And pretty much all the same age or younger than Bekele.  And was just before the biological passport took effect.  Which in light of this weeks news, maybe errbody just simply doping again. Hooray.

                             

                            What was Sara hall wearing?  Fancy ASICS?  I don’t actually follow this like I should.

                            11:11 3,000 (recent)

                            Brewing Runner


                            Cat Disliker

                              PJ: FREE races? Crazy! Although, there was that one I linked earlier full of elites. Have fun this weekend. Tell max I said hello and think of him when I drink coffee, oh and I tell his wisdom to as many people as I can. If you're having a bad day it can get worse, but it can always get better. If you're having a good day it can only get worse.

                               

                              Training question: Ladders vs repeats. What's the point, what is your preference and what is your idea for the recovery? I chose a ladder last night over 800m repeats. I went for a pretty fully recovery based on time ON vs distance recovery. MY logic was the ladder is a speed workout and the goal is to get the speed work done properly, not to get the speed work done with as little recovery. It felt different mentally than doing 800m repeats. The last 800 and 400 felt different (easy) and almost harder to control the speed than it might have for an 800 where I'd probably go all out. Even the first 400m was too fast and I'd almost NEVER do that for repeats of any length.

                              1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                              5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                              10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                              Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                              Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                              Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                              *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                               

                              2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                               


                              From the Internet.

                                We do a lot of ladder/mixed interval stuff at my club track workouts; with our club demographic (lots of people of different abilities and speeds, different mileage levels, different goals) it's generally just to keep things from getting stale/boring week in and week out. Some of my favorites are things like mile and km breakdowns; the km version would be 1000, 800-200, 600-400, 500-500, 400-400-200, where we do a longer 400m jog between each set and shorter 200m jog between reps within a set.