Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2020 (Read 554 times)

SteveChCh


Hot Weather Complainer

     

    Steve - Ah, that’s new Zealands Linkin Park then .

     

    Wash your mouth out!  Way better than Linkin Park.

     

    Vitamins - I take zinc, magnesium, glucosamine and fish oil.  I was always sceptical so looked for evidence that they actually help.  The fish oil dose probably isn't enough to decrease inflammation but there is solid evidence that it helps the brain especially later in life.  I used to get at least one heavy cold every year and zinc supposedly reduces the impact and I've found this to be true.  I haven't had a cold that has stopped me running for 5 years - although had one this year that stopped me doing a race.  I could still do easy running though.

     

    Mark - All I've got to go on is following your journey here and on Strava, but I think the biggest factor is the 2020 effect.  It's only your second full and you've had basically a 9 month training block with several peaks.  That doesn't sound like the easiest way to perform at your absolute best.  Through no fault of your own, you may have just over-trained but without any other option.  That makes 2:41 quite remarkable.  I definitely wouldn't write off the wind and hills in the last 7km either, again, outside your control.

     

    JMac - +1 to further recognising your stunning marathon PR.  February in Christchurch will be outside my comfort zone for peak marathon training but probably doesn't pass the JMac test.

    PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

    Recent Races:   Cherry Blossom Half-Marathon, September 13, 2020 1:33:38 Half-Marathon Time Trial May 31, 2020 1:31.51 Auckland Waterfront Half-Marathon 2019 1:30.49

    2020 Planned Races:  Queenstown Half-Marathon, November 21

    Marky_Mark_17


      Steve - there's probably something in your point around overtraining, JMac made a similar comment a page or two ago.  If I look at when I was really nailing training and races last year, generally I'd have a pretty full-on 6-8 weeks volume-wise, then drop it back and up the intensity maybe 3 weeks out from a race.

       

      34 weeks over 80km is quite a bit more than that!  Having that much volume in the legs is a great platform though so I know just need to figure out how to make the most of it and get the sharpness back.  Ideally in the next 3 weeks haha.

      5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

      HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

      Last race: Wairarapa Country Marathon, 11 Oct, 2:41:41 (PB)

      Up next: NZ Road Race Champs (10k), 7 Nov (I hope!)

      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

        Mark you did great under all the circumstances.

         

        Jmac I recommend the New Balance Zante pursuits although they may be discontinued which is a shame. They are 6mm drop and under 8 oz and very comfy but minimal.

        The New Balance Beacon 3 would be worth looking at. Check out online reviews first. Again 6mm drop and under 8 oz. I didn't enjoy the Beacon 2 until it had quite a few miles on it. It seemed to firm.

        I really enjoy the New Balance Fuelcell Rebels light and minimal. I use them for tempos but they are comfy as hell.

        50+ PBs -  

        5k 18.25 Tauranga Parkrun  Sept 20      81.36 % age grade

        10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

        Next race Tauranga city to Surf 11km Nov 1st 2020

        Mount Maunganui half 10k 28th nov 2020

        " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

        Somewhere in between is about right "      

         

        JMac11


        Taper Czar

          Piwi - thanks, will investigate those to see what I like.

           

          DW - your mile having a lower HR than your marathon, that cannot be the norm. I know we're providing anecdotes here, but I think the vast majority of runners experience a higher heart rate in mile/5K than they do in a marathon.

           

          Regarding gels, I also don't think 9 gels is normal for a 2:55 marathoner. The best runners in the world, who generally have the highest caloric needs, are only taking their drinks every 5K or so, which is 8.

           

          So put another way, although I think your position is very interesting, I don't think it's the norm. If you ask 100 male marathoners who run between 2:30 and 2:45, I cannot imagine more than just a handful are taking in a gel every 5K. The vast majority are probably between 2-5 based on the research I've done (which was pretty extensive when I was trying to learn how to fuel).

           

          Having said all of that, of course Mark may be in the high need zone like you are. But 2 more gels wasn't going to get him from 2:41 down to his true potential of low 2:30s given his training volume. I think all of the other issue were much bigger factors (training up and down, weird tapering due to COVID, training too long, lack of a group to run with, weather). You can throw gels in that group, but they weren't the reason he didn't finish strong like his coach tried to imply.

           

          Steve - Even MP based runs in 75 degree weather is outside the comfort zone, don't worry, won't get you for that . What's the average temperature for that time of year for race start time? Quick search does look a touch warm.

          5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

           

          Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

            JMac - The race is in April starting at 8am so by then it should be nice and cool.  It's the training from December - February when it will be tough going.  The heat here is dry though.  It is what it is, I just wish the race was still in early June.  In January - February it can get up to about 37-38C (98-100F) but not regularly enough for me to be forced to run when it's that hot, and I would arrange my running times around any crazy hot forecasts.  It's not NYC, but I melt quicker than a jelly tip in the heat.

            PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

            Recent Races:   Cherry Blossom Half-Marathon, September 13, 2020 1:33:38 Half-Marathon Time Trial May 31, 2020 1:31.51 Auckland Waterfront Half-Marathon 2019 1:30.49

            2020 Planned Races:  Queenstown Half-Marathon, November 21

            watsonc123


              +1 to NB Zante Pursuit.

               

              I am not sure that Mark could just increase his training volume and hit 2:30.  Some marathon runners do best on moderate mileage.  Christine Clark won the woman's 2000 Olympic spot on similar training volume to Marks.

              PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

               

              40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

              JMac11


              Taper Czar

                I just went and read my CIM race report. I'm now sad that I don't know when my next big marathon will be. Stupid COVID . You Kiwis better be thankful every day!

                5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                flavio1980


                King of pastries

                  Keen - please receive my wishes that you can get around this rough patch soon.

                   

                  Jmac - forcing mask usage during the whole race is retarded.

                  Sorry to hear about the lower leg/feet niggles. What’s your current strength routine?

                  In my limited experience those issues are related to weakness up the chain (hamstrings and glutes).

                  Again, at least in my limited experience, lots of consistent strength training has helped diminish them greatly.

                   

                  Mark - here’s to you having a great recovery from the marathon so you can collect the fruits from all those long weeks in the shorter races.

                   

                  Piwi - I’ve been taking propolis, omega 3 (aka fish oil) once or twice a day, and Lactobacillus before going to sleep.

                  These are all intended to boost my immune system and they seem to work well. I probably could skip them if I lived in a less polluted area that didn’t trigger my rhinitis as much.

                   

                  I raced on the Escalante Racer, I think I posted a picture a while back.

                  You could afford a coach if you didn’t spend so much on that blue pill 

                  PRs: 1500m 4:54 (2019) 3K 10:34 (2019) 5K 18:02 (2020) 9.86K 36:40 (2020) HM 1:23:30 (2020)

                  Up next: 5k Cinque Mila del NoviSad 2020-11-01

                  Tool to generate Strava weekly

                  zebano


                    Do you guys not get nasty burps with the fish oil supplements? I found those super gross though the science on fish oil also seemed a little better than most other supplements I've looked at.

                     

                    +1 on the Zante pursuit. I love mine and I'm sad that they have 350 miles. Since around 300 they've felt noticeably less poppy than they used to. I'm looking for a replacement but haven't found a replacement yet. I have some Altra Vanish-R in a box but I was regarding them more as racing flats than anything. We'll see. I stalked the prime sale a little yesterday but didn't find any deals I liked.

                     

                    Any of you New Balance Gurus know what a Fresh Foam Evare is? I can get a pair for $35 which is that price point I usually just take a chance on shoes whether I need them or not.

                    1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 45:24 (2017), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Mary - 3:37:17 (2018)

                    CommanderKeen


                    Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                      I'm in complete agreement with JMac regarding fall marathons being best. Though there are outliers like Dallas and Cowtown from the past year that had spring temps (upper 50s/14C) to start when it had been around freezing otherwise.


                      JMac - Is that weird sock thing helping at all?


                      Piwi - I haven't been doing any vitamins, but I'm actually about to pull the trigger and get some just to supplement anything I might be missing in my daily diet.


                      Marathon nutrition - I'm closer to the DWave side of things in that I try getting a gel about every 3.75-4 miles (so 6-7 gels). I think having more gels does help me during the race, but also immediately afterwards. I've finished marathons with complete "the lights are on but nobody's home" expressions before and thought I was fine at the time but after getting some calories in me I could look back and see how truly out of it I had been. More gels helps to (mostly) avoid that for me.

                       

                      DWave - How are things feeling after the PRP?


                      Steve - Heat does a number on me, too. Also, what's a "jelly tip"? I'm not sure that's one I should google on my own...


                      Flavio - Thanks so much!


                      Zebano - Those Vanish-Rs certainly aren't anything I'd want to use daily. I've run 5ks in them and like them for that, but wouldn't want them for anything beyond a 10k. And maybe not even that.


                      I already think I'm starting to feel better, even though I've only been "taking it easy" for a couple days now. I'm thinking I'll keep this up until maybe the end of the month, but it may be difficult restraining myself for that long.

                      5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                       

                      Upcoming Races (?):

                      8/29 Moore War 5k

                      9/5 - Tunnel to Towers 5k

                      9/27 - Run Elk City 5k

                      10/4 - Wurst Race Half - Ran it!

                      10/18 - Hot Chocolate 15k (Pacing)

                       

                        Jmac old race reports make me emotional too 

                         

                        Flavio I don't need that blue pill  I figure as I catch fish that I get enough fish oil naturally although thats like saying because I eat spinach I get enough iron.

                        I eat a lot of honey. On my toast everyday and have started substituting it for sugar in my coffee.

                        My son brought back a giant bucket of it from his last filming job as it was given to him.

                         

                        Zebano I haven't heard of those. Looks like a 4mm drop.

                        Pity if the Zantes are discontinued. I wear my old ones to work now. They are so darn comfortable.

                        50+ PBs -  

                        5k 18.25 Tauranga Parkrun  Sept 20      81.36 % age grade

                        10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

                        Next race Tauranga city to Surf 11km Nov 1st 2020

                        Mount Maunganui half 10k 28th nov 2020

                        " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

                        Somewhere in between is about right "      

                         

                        Running Problem


                        Problem Child

                          I just went and read my CIM race report. I'm now sad that I don't know when my next big marathon will be. Stupid COVID . You Kiwis better be thankful every day!

                           

                          Definitely a great race for you. Maybe come back and run it for the next big Olympic Trials cycle. I wish I had that speed still.

                          2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                          SteveChCh


                          Hot Weather Complainer

                            Zebano - I find that happens with some fish oil but some of them sell themselves as no nasty taste and they seem to work.  I guess they use a thicker shell.

                             

                            CK - Kiwi summer deliciousness:

                             

                            50 Classic Foods That Bring Back Memories From Your ...

                            PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                            Recent Races:   Cherry Blossom Half-Marathon, September 13, 2020 1:33:38 Half-Marathon Time Trial May 31, 2020 1:31.51 Auckland Waterfront Half-Marathon 2019 1:30.49

                            2020 Planned Races:  Queenstown Half-Marathon, November 21

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                              Piwi - thanks, will investigate those to see what I like.

                               

                              DW - your mile having a lower HR than your marathon, that cannot be the norm. I know we're providing anecdotes here, but I think the vast majority of runners experience a higher heart rate in mile/5K than they do in a marathon.

                               

                              Regarding gels, I also don't think 9 gels is normal for a 2:55 marathoner. The best runners in the world, who generally have the highest caloric needs, are only taking their drinks every 5K or so, which is 8.

                               

                              So put another way, although I think your position is very interesting, I don't think it's the norm. If you ask 100 male marathoners who run between 2:30 and 2:45, I cannot imagine more than just a handful are taking in a gel every 5K. The vast majority are probably between 2-5 based on the research I've done (which was pretty extensive when I was trying to learn how to fuel).

                               

                              Having said all of that, of course Mark may be in the high need zone like you are. But 2 more gels wasn't going to get him from 2:41 down to his true potential of low 2:30s given his training volume. I think all of the other issue were much bigger factors (training up and down, weird tapering due to COVID, training too long, lack of a group to run with, weather). You can throw gels in that group, but they weren't the reason he didn't finish strong like his coach tried to imply.

                               

                              I don't disagree  with your overall points at all.  I'm definitely an outlier in the mile/marathon HR thing - my HR tends to rise slowly, even when I'm running very hard (I think that's one of the reasons I have to ease into my races - if I start at goal pace, I overrun my HR and go anaerobic).

                               

                              For illustration: 

                              2018 California International Marathon (average HR of 170, max of 180) - this is my marathon PR

                              2019 Fifth Avenue Mile (average HR 166, max of 173) - this tied my mile PR

                               

                              My point with the whole HR thing is just that what gives out on us may indicate what our best distance is.   I think that if you are breathing totally normally at the end of a marathon but limited by your legs, it's an indication that either something went wrong or the distance is not your specialty.   The breathing normally but my legs have died thing has only happened to me in my bad marathons.   My best marathons have felt like 5Ks at the end.

                               

                              (and I think the fact that I can't get my HR up at all in a mile indicates that the mile is not my best distance)

                               

                              As for the gel thing - I absolutely agree that few need as many gels as I do.  At the same time, I think some people unnecessarily conserve on the gels they consume, and I don't understand why.   My thinking is - why not err on the side of getting more nutrition, rather than less,during a marathon.  Concerns about GI distress are the only reason I can come up with not to hit the gels very hard during a marathon.

                               

                               

                               

                               

                              DWave - How are things feeling after the PRP?

                               

                              Fine, thanks for asking.  I remember my bouts of PRP in this ankle 6 years ago being excruciating, but this set wasn't that bad.   The doctor said that he had numbed my ankle some, which he didn't do before, so that's probably why.

                               

                              6 years ago, I was living in a small apartment, and took an elevator to my floor.  Now I live in a single family house with a lot of stairs.   Life on crutches was far easier in the apartment.   Fortunately I was only on the crutches for 12 hours or so.

                               

                              Herding cats, in a house with stairs, while on crutches, is its own special joy.

                               

                              I'm taking 2 days of being sedentary, and then carefully easing into stuff.  I'm supposed to build back up as pain allows, which is problematic because nothing's really hurting very much.

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              JMac11


                              Taper Czar

                                Definitely agree with this. If you have an iron stomach, I would take a gel every 5K. But I think the vast majority of marathoners would have a problem taking in that much. For me, its a balance of nutrition vs. stitches. I am always battling stitches in every marathon, and if I took a gel every 5K I would lose that battle.

                                 

                                I think my broader point was more that Mark took in sufficient nutrition, even if his "ideal" nutrition was 2 more gels. Just felt like a cop out for his coach, thats all.

                                 

                                As for the gel thing - I absolutely agree that few need as many gels as I do.  At the same time, I think some people unnecessarily conserve on the gels they consume, and I don't understand why.   My thinking is - why not err on the side of getting more nutrition, rather than less,during a marathon.  Concerns about GI distress are the only reason I can come up with not to hit the gels very hard during a marathon.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run