Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2020 (Read 539 times)

flavio1980


King of pastries

    DPS - LOL, rebel mode activated!!!

     

    Zebano - I'll refer you to my intro where I say that strength training is the holy grail of running. Welcome aboard, this is going to be fun!

     

    My week last week. I took the weekend off due to a family gathering. I'm also eating about 2 people's daily intake during this period of the year so expect much weight loss complaining from me, especially if I don't manage to get down to 82kg come race day.

     

    M: Strength training

    T: 4x1200 @ Interval pace with 600m jogs

    W: 12ez

    T: 10km @ Marathon pace, actual 4:15 / km

    F: 12 ez

    S: Off

    S: Off

    M: Planned 20k @ long run pace, actual 15.4km at easy pace. Just unbearable heat and I had to walk some bits on the way back.

    PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:23:30 - Up next: Some 5K race Sep 6th.

    Tool to generate Strava weekly

    flavio1980


    King of pastries

      zebano - I wanted to expand on my answer. I find that strength training is the answer to a lot of the questions asked by runners, but it's important to say that the training has to be tailored to your needs by a professional.

      I can't recommend enough working with a Functional training professional to diagnose yourself and get started on a prehab path back to full strength training mode.

      When I started down that path back in 2017 I had spent years avoiding fast workouts because I was afraid of getting injured.

      During my stint at the functional training gym they've sort of diagnosed some of my weaknesses and got me started on a bunch of very easy exercises. I kid you not, some of them involved laying on my back and rolling to one side while trying to to use my legs to do it.

      After a few months of prehabing and with a core in a much better condition I was able to get started on the more traditional strength training  exercises like the squat and the deadlift.

      I'm currently following a routine that has bodyweight and ring exercises and it's helping me greatly to gain strength and maintain what I had.

      I've seen countless "lost cases" join that functional training gym only become fully functional again after a few months. It might be worth a try.

      PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:23:30 - Up next: Some 5K race Sep 6th.

      Tool to generate Strava weekly

      Marky_Mark_17


        Grapes, KCam, Zebano - welcome!! Great to see some new faces around.

         

        The Rest: Welcome back!

         

        Kimba: I didn't realise you were a soccer player previously.  It's amazing how many athletes convert to running later on having played other sports and perform well.

        5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

        HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

        Last race: NZ 10,000m Champs, 21 March, 32:34 (PB) 

        Up next: Wairarapa Country Marathon, 11 Oct (I HOPE!!!!)

        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

        kimba


          Yeah, Mark, I’ve also seen the same thing.  Especially  with soccer- so much running!  When I was playing soccer I used to laugh at the girls who ran x-country; couldn’t fathom why they would just run without a specific object to chase......😂.  With age comes.......wisdom?  I dunno.  I just like running 😃

          800m:  2:20.3 (2015) | 1 Mile:  5:13 (2016) | 5K: 18:32 (2010) | 10km: 39:55 (2012) HM: 1:28 (2013) 

           

          kimba


            Question for the Daniels experts:

            I went to the track for the first time  yesterday in keeping with the plan.  Work-out was sets of 200, 200, 400 at R pace.  I don't know my exact VDOT so I'm conservatively estimating based on history, recent injury, etc.  I'm also using how I feel during these first 2 weeks of hitting the quality work-outs to verify if I've chosen the right pace.

             

            For this work-out, the prescribed pace based on my "estimated" VDOT was 43-45 for the 200s, 88-90 for the 40s.  It all felt very comfortable.  This is okay for the first time at the track in several months, but for the future, and until I can run a race to more precisely identify my VDOT, I'm wondering if I should make R pace "feel"  more difficult?  If the purpose of this type of work-out is for speed and anaerobic development, and long recoveries are prescribed to make sure you're ready to run just as fast at all intervals, it seems logical that I should maybe feel a bit more uncomfortable at the completion of each rep

            800m:  2:20.3 (2015) | 1 Mile:  5:13 (2016) | 5K: 18:32 (2010) | 10km: 39:55 (2012) HM: 1:28 (2013) 

             

            flavio1980


            King of pastries

              Kimba - are you accounting for DOMS. You could be feeling great a few hours after completing the workouts and then feel like trash tomorrow or the day after. So perhaps wait and see how your body reacts to the extra muscular stress.

               

              Also I think the theory is that you train for your current VDOT and if you feel it's too easy then you race to get a new VDOT, then train based on that.

               

              In my experience doing mile/R pace is hard on the muscles but maybe not so hard on the lungs, especially 200s.

              You would feel tired after the workout but would recover quickly.

              PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:23:30 - Up next: Some 5K race Sep 6th.

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              flavio1980


              King of pastries

                2019 is in the box.

                 

                2416km / 1502 miles.

                 

                3K PR down from 10:40 to 10:34

                1500 PR down from 4:57 to 4:54

                 

                Mileage history:

                2019 - 1502

                2018 - 1587

                2017 - 1118

                2016 - 1635

                2015 - 1615

                2014 - 1525

                2013 - 1161

                2012 - 622

                 

                Happy new year yall 

                PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:23:30 - Up next: Some 5K race Sep 6th.

                Tool to generate Strava weekly

                zebano


                  zebano - I wanted to expand on my answer. I find that strength training is the answer to a lot of the questions asked by runners, but it's important to say that the training has to be tailored to your needs by a professional.

                  I can't recommend enough working with a Functional training professional to diagnose yourself and get started on a prehab path back to full strength training mode.

                  When I started down that path back in 2017 I had spent years avoiding fast workouts because I was afraid of getting injured.

                  During my stint at the functional training gym they've sort of diagnosed some of my weaknesses and got me started on a bunch of very easy exercises. I kid you not, some of them involved laying on my back and rolling to one side while trying to to use my legs to do it.

                  After a few months of prehabing and with a core in a much better condition I was able to get started on the more traditional strength training  exercises like the squat and the deadlift.

                  I'm currently following a routine that has bodyweight and ring exercises and it's helping me greatly to gain strength and maintain what I had.

                  I've seen countless "lost cases" join that functional training gym only become fully functional again after a few months. It might be worth a try.

                   

                  What is the difference between a "functional training profession" and a physical therapist? I've done a lot of PT and it's unfortunately very expensive. I'm currently able to do all the usual traditional weight lifting though I rarely stick with that. I do just a few simple things at home like clamshells, banded walks, calf raises, pistols and RDLs at home a few times a week as that seems to help (they're all things PTs have prescribed to me at different points). I'm not trying to be skeptical, I'm just a little jaded at this point as I've done a fair amount of strength work and it seems to be the difference between getting through say 6 reps of an 8x800@CV workout before the hamstring gets angry versus 4 if I wasn't doing the work.

                  1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 45:24 (2017), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Mary - 3:37:17 (2018)

                  zebano


                    Question for the Daniels experts:

                    I went to the track for the first time  yesterday in keeping with the plan.  Work-out was sets of 200, 200, 400 at R pace.  I don't know my exact VDOT so I'm conservatively estimating based on history, recent injury, etc.  I'm also using how I feel during these first 2 weeks of hitting the quality work-outs to verify if I've chosen the right pace.

                     

                    For this work-out, the prescribed pace based on my "estimated" VDOT was 43-45 for the 200s, 88-90 for the 40s.  It all felt very comfortable.  This is okay for the first time at the track in several months, but for the future, and until I can run a race to more precisely identify my VDOT, I'm wondering if I should make R pace "feel"  more difficult?  If the purpose of this type of work-out is for speed and anaerobic development, and long recoveries are prescribed to make sure you're ready to run just as fast at all intervals, it seems logical that I should maybe feel a bit more uncomfortable at the completion of each rep

                     

                    Kimba,

                     

                    If I remember my Daniels (it's been a couple of years) he claims R is also for stride efficiency. I'll throw my 2 cents in here that 200s never feel very uncomfortable. 400s however can be. If the 400s aren't a problem I'd consider trying 1 VDOT higher but not any more as he repeatedly makes the point that running faster than pace doesn't help you progress any faster (I'm not totally sure I believe him but that's up to you). The other thing to remember is that he suggests progressing your vdot by 1 every 4-6 weeks of consistent training. I personally think one of the joys of R workouts is that you don't have to really dig deep yet to finish them like you do when you get to the longer I workouts. I think of Daniel's phase II as pre-season, you're not trying to peak yet so your not doing the super hard workouts, just building up so you're ready to do those workouts in the future.

                    1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 45:24 (2017), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Mary - 3:37:17 (2018)

                    flavio1980


                    King of pastries

                       

                      What is the difference between a "functional training profession" and a physical therapist? I've done a lot of PT and it's unfortunately very expensive. I'm currently able to do all the usual traditional weight lifting though I rarely stick with that. I do just a few simple things at home like clamshells, banded walks, calf raises, pistols and RDLs at home a few times a week as that seems to help (they're all things PTs have prescribed to me at different points). I'm not trying to be skeptical, I'm just a little jaded at this point as I've done a fair amount of strength work and it seems to be the difference between getting through say 6 reps of an 8x800@CV workout before the hamstring gets angry versus 4 if I wasn't doing the work.

                       

                      Pardon me, I didn't mean to say Functional training is the one strength training that works. I just wanted to provide my own example.

                      Is that pistol squats? Anyway, it seems you're doing just fine.

                      But traditional strength training could (emphasis on could) push you over the edge to where you don't have the problems anymore. Off course a PT would give you a proper answer.

                       

                      Let me give you my example: I had a lot of calf issues. Like a lot!!! That also manifested as plantar fascitiis at a times, and in the quadriceps after long efforts.

                      During strength training I've gotten stronger glutes and abs and now I'm not running leaning forward anymore like I did before. I can clearly see that from videos and photos from back then.With stronger core the calves are no longer hit so hard so they don't bother me as much.

                      I've also learned all about foam rolling there, so niggle maintenance to avoid letting them become injuries.

                       

                      I'm rambling, I'm not sure if any of this applies to you.

                      PRs: 1500m 4:54.1 3K 10:34 5K 18:05 HM 1:23:30 - Up next: Some 5K race Sep 6th.

                      Tool to generate Strava weekly

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        Kimba - I am NOT a Daniels expert.  But...my two cents is....if I read you correctly,  you are best at the short fast stuff, based on your 800m and mile PRs. You are also using Daniels in hopes of improving at the longer distances.

                         

                        If those assumptions are correct, then it's not at all surprising that you would find that R stuff easy.  (for myself, OTOH, being more of a strength runner, the R paces are hard but doable).  I would think you could comfortably overshoot the prescribed paces slightly since you effectively have a different VDOT for shorter distances and longer, but I also wouldn't spend too much time on that phase.  It's a phase of training dedicated to developing something that's already very strong in you.

                         

                        [of course, IIRC, you're also coming back from a break.  In that case, perhaps it's not a bad idea to hang out in that phase for a couple weeks anyway - it's a nice comfortable way for you to reintroduce hard running]

                         

                        Weights:  I hereby cosign Flavio's comments.

                         

                        I'm a huge believer in strength training for most runners as a way of bullet proofing ourselves.  I think the exact details of the routine need to be customized to the runner - my personal routine is based on my own personal injury history - but it has benefits for all.

                         

                        I think strength training gets a bad rap sometimes because it takes time away from running, and can also be useless or even counterproductive if done wrong.  But for most of us, it pays huge dividends.  I do not think I could sustain the mileage that I do if I didn't supplement it regularly with lifting and with yoga (which I consider a variant on body weight strength training).

                         

                        Two underappreciated benefits of heavy lifting (i.e. 4-6 rep range):

                         

                        1) it promotes the natural release of HGH and testosterone - two things that are incredibly helpful to running and recovery.  It's unethical to take those by pill or injection, but nothing wrong with encouraging their release in the gym.  I do HEAVY upper body weights on my easy running days for that reason.

                         

                        2) It's a safe way to add a bit extra load.  It's often those last 1-2 reps in a running workout where we get injured due to form breakdown.  So...if you do slightly less in your track workout, and then hit the gym right after for some squats, heavy lunges, step-ups with dumbbells, etc, you can get approximately the same total load on your legs, while keeping the last few reps low impact and safer (agreed - not quite as much cardio benefit).

                         

                        I think lifting weights gets a bad rap because it does carry the risk of bulking up if you are a younger man, with that extra weight being detrimental to running.  And...there's also an argument that if you want to be a better runner, you'll always get the most direct and immediate benefit from simply running more.

                         

                        So...if you're a young man, injury free and biomechanically perfect, then just run  - good for you.  But for the rest of us, lifting both improves our running directly AND enables us to sustain higher mileage without injury.  And one of the big secrets to continuing to improve, as you age, is DON'T GET INJURED.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                           

                           

                          Kimba: I didn't realise you were a soccer player previously.  It's amazing how many athletes convert to running later on having played other sports and perform well.

                           

                          I've always been fascinated by how athletes from other sports convert to running, and what running characteristics go with each sport - my running team has a lot of second sport athletes, so I've been able to follow over the years.  A few observations (please correct or add insight):

                           

                          • Soccer players tend to make the transition the easiest, and to have the most luck staying injury free (don't mean to jinx anyone).  Tennis players also fall in this category.
                          • Swimmers tend to have injury problems that are no doubt attributable to the discrepancy between their massive aerobic engines and bodies that are completely unused to pounding.  They also often have a very high arm carriage, and like to start out their workouts and races very aggressively - I'm guessing it's a carryover from swimming races, where the first lap is always the fastest due to diving off the blocks.  They also don't always understand the slower recovery associated with running workouts as opposed to the pool.
                          • Cyclists are ridiculously strong running uphill, and not so great running downhill.  They also have a similar big engine/weak chassis experience as swimmers.
                          • Rowers tend to be big for the sport, and dealing with the combined effects of their greater mass and lack of experience with pounding sometimes hampers them.  They have amazing aerobic pain tolerance though - nobody knows how to hurt at the end of an aerobic race like someone who has rowed.
                          • Gymnasts have a lot of power and are very quick off the line, but struggle with pacing over extended distances.  They are aerobically underdeveloped and need to play catch up.  Track sprinters fall in this category too, but less so.  (it's also hilarious to watch a former elite gymnast go through the standard set of running drills and leg swings - it's almost other worldly).
                          • Equestrians have great core strength and very good senses of pacing, but are massively underdeveloped aerobically.  They also tend to have some injury problems when starting running due to the imbalance between their very strong adductors and hamstrings and weak abductors, glutes, and calves.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          dpschumacher


                          Making a comeback

                            Last run in the books. From 1 mile on 1/1/19 to 2820 miles by the end. Down 70 lbs, back in shape, ready for real racing in 2020, and another kid on the way.  I have earned my Johnny Walker double with 1 ice cube. Happy new year everyone. I'm going to bed at 8:30 pm. Got a run in the morning. 

                            2019 Goal: Run every day Goal: Get to 165 lbs Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

                            2020 Goals:

                            5k:16:30

                            HM: 1:18:00

                            Marathon: 2:45:00

                            New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

                            Marky_Mark_17


                              Last run in the books. From 1 mile on 1/1/19 to 2820 miles by the end. Down 70 lbs, back in shape, ready for real racing in 2020, and another kid on the way.  I have earned my Johnny Walker double with 1 ice cube. Happy new year everyone. I'm going to bed at 8:30 pm. Got a run in the morning. 


                              Great work.

                               

                              I was up before sunrise on New Years Day to run this morning - one of my Silly Running Traditions. Bit easier to do in the Northern Hemisphere at this time of year!

                               

                              Darkwave - interesting comparisons there (also, that’s an impressive sample size!).

                              I had a good chat with a cyclist friend who was previously a runner that is entirely consistent with how you described cyclists that convert to running - strong uphill (quads and glutes!)... not so good elsewhere.

                               

                              As a converted field hockey player it’s much the same as soccer players. Most tend to have the anaerobic ability, it’s just a case of developing the aerobic platform to go with it.

                              5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                              HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

                              Last race: NZ 10,000m Champs, 21 March, 32:34 (PB) 

                              Up next: Wairarapa Country Marathon, 11 Oct (I HOPE!!!!)

                              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                              dpschumacher


                              Making a comeback

                                Just realized for the first time that you played field hockey and not ice hockey. LOL. This is what happens when you live in the biggest hockey state in the USA. 

                                2019 Goal: Run every day Goal: Get to 165 lbs Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

                                2020 Goals:

                                5k:16:30

                                HM: 1:18:00

                                Marathon: 2:45:00

                                New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**