Forums >Racing>Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2019
RIP Milkman
I’m not sure I agree with the idea that people can’t slow down more and keep their form. Sure, running a 12 minute mile might be difficult, but elite athletes who run sub 5:00 marathons can run 9:00 on their recovery runs. I’m not saying that what one experiences when they slow down isn’t a break down in form, but rather that they just need to learn how to run at MP+60 or MP+120 and still have very similar form to MP. If you don’t, then that may be telling you something.
Again DPS this is just me throwing an idea out there for improving, so you can just ignore me.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
3 months til Masters
When I'm tat 7:05 or 7:10 I can definitely talk. I have a cadence in the mid 170's when I slow down to 7:30 or so now, I feel like I'm taking super tiny steps and end up stumbling. It is odd considering I was doing it daily a few months ago. I think part of it was when I started running workouts an races (mid may) by body started going back to racing mode where my form adjusts to mid foot to almost toe strike. I was a 800 and 1500 person in college (and cross country) so the lsd is needed for base, but still feels odd.
2023 Goals
Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18
10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)
5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)
Sub 1:16 Half Marathon City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)
Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)
2024 Goals
Sub 2:37 Marathon
Sub 1:15 Half
Sub 34 10k
Sub 16 5k
I’m not sure I agree with the idea that people can’t slow down more and keep their form. Sure, running a 12 minute mile might be difficult, but elite athletes who run sub 5:00 marathons can run 9:00 on their recovery runs. I’m not saying that what one experiences when they slow down isn’t a break down in form, but rather that they just need to learn how to run at MP+60 or MP+120 and still have very similar form to MP. If you don’t, then that may be telling you something. Again DPS this is just me throwing an idea out there for improving, so you can just ignore me.
I think it depends a lot on natural cadence. If you've got a naturally quick leg turnover, then dropping it too low is going to result in either a change in running form (with accompanying risk of injury), or super-short steps (like DPS described). For example, my easy run on Monday had an average cadence of 182spm. Strava tells me your most recent easy run was 170spm - that's a big difference. If you're running genuinely easy (on feel/HR), I don't really think the pace matters a lot.
Honestly, my legs were more stuffed after running a half marathon with my wife four years ago than after a lot of races - she was running at 6-7 minutes/km with walk breaks later on.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
A few things:
1) You can’t compare an easy run at 8:30 pace and an easy run at 7:45 pace. For example, my last easy run at 7:45 pace I was at 177 spm. I don’t think 5 SPM makes that big of a difference here. Your SPM should speed up as you speed up, but the point is to try to minimize it as much as you can, e.g. easy runs shouldn’t be 160 SPM and half marathons 200 SPM.
2) Being able to talk is not really the guidepost: I can talk when running marathon pace. Even during a marathon, I can talk in full sentences until about mile 18. It’s about having easy conversations. One thing I’ve noticed recently is that on truly easy runs, I can just breathe through my nose for a bit. If it’s more than easy, I need to breathe through my mouth and nose. I think another easier guide than “can I talk” which is probably too subjective is breathing pattern. I know I’ve exited easy running once my breathing pattern gets to 2-2 (it’s usually 3-3 or 3-2 on easy runs)
3) I haven’t found a single prominent coach who advocates running easy runs at MP+30. Even Jack Daniels, who probably has the fastest easy running out of anyone I know, puts it at MP+60. I like Pfitz’s rule the most though, which is that easy runs should be MP + 15-25%.
4) Your legs were probably more stuffed just because you were way less experienced. As we run more races, our soreness level generally decreases. Otherwise, we would all be very sore after easy long runs of 13.1 miles and not sore after racing.
2. I think we're saying the same thing here - easy running lends itself to comfortable conversations.
3. I don't think having a 'target pace' in mind for an easy run referenced off MP is a great idea full-stop. Easy should just feel easy. It might be a bit more than MP or a lot more than MP on any given day. You shouldn't even be thinking about pace. Aside from which, it's totally meaningless for anyone who doesn't have a good feel for what their current MP is (like me and DPS). There's a massive range even amongst elites in terms of easy pace - Zane Robertson is on record saying his easy pace can be anywhere between 4:00/km and 5:00/km (6:20-8:00/mile).
4. OK that was maybe not the best example, but I still stand by the fact that if you're a naturally high cadence runner, below a certain pace things may feel very unnatural and you may end up doing yourself more harm than good. I've had this exact discussion with the massage therapist I see - who also happens to be a sub-70 HM'er and knows a lot more about biomechanics than me and he endorses easy running being easy in all regards (effort and biomechanical).
I haven't got much to add to this topic as there are so many variables. People's age, gender, mileage, talent, experience etc all seems to effect their "easy" pace.
I've always fallen into the 4.30 to 5 min/km easy pace and 5.30/km recovery pace even when I was running sub 3 marathons and 17.30 5k. My cadence falls to around 176 at recovery and is around 180 at easy. I try to keep form and posture at recovery pace and keep cadence up with obviously shorter steps. Effort is similar to a brisk walk.
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Even more thoughts!
Some asked why I got a coach. I want to take a crack the next few years at breaking my Dad's PR in the marathon. I don't have enough knowledge beyond reading a few books on how to train for a marathon. If I was just shooting for 5 or 10k I would be fine coaching myself. I wanted something more adaptive to my results at any given time and someone I trust to bounce ideas off of.
My Dad's PR is 2:37:01 in the marathon. He 2 weeks after his last college race for University of Wisconsin. He was a 1500 guy (3:41.2) and his other PR in 5k (13:57) and 10k (28:16) are completely out of reach. He was an all American in cross country. His marathon time is obviously soft, but he never ran another until is mid 40's so it is the one I have a shot at.
I just need some help with long term planning, setting goals in between, and workouts geared to my weaknesses. The guy I am having coach me is part of our running club and has 30 sub 2:35 marathons with a best at 2:23: xx.
I have been out of running for so long I just needed some help once I get into real serious training. I have run 16:02 5k and 34:32 10k. I think I can still breaky 10k or, but the 5k may be tough. I do think though through building endurance I can go 26.2 at 6 min mile pace
Cobra Commander Keen
Mark - That shirt is pretty slick - too bad it's not available on the US site. I'm sure shipping from NZ would probably be a deal breaker. That orange one is rapidly becoming my favorite singlet with how light it is. Plus DW says she likes it because she can see me coming from a long way off when I wear it.
DPS - Best of luck breaking your dad's PR.
Easy run discussions always get lively!
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Intl. correspondent
Mark - That picture explains a lot. You’re looking very relaxed
DPS - Re: injuries, there is only one strategy that works. Strength training and diligence with foam rolling.
Is it your lower back that hurts? That usually is a sign of weak glutes.
Re coach, great choice:
You have a lot of potential (Genetics is a huge component), you might not run his times, but 15:30 is a given with proper work.
I’m sure Mark can corroborate, but having someone to look objectively at your training, someone who’s seen hundreds of athletes and situations is very helpful.
I can list a few examples of things I noticed since starting to have a coach at the beginning of this year:
He told me to run 5 days a week instead of 7, do proper strength training instead of focusing on perfecting my form with drills and what not. I've also run less mileage. Kinds of things that only a professional can observe with an objective look at your training.
Jmac - heh I’m KING of cadence!!!
Ok, seriously, my cadence is 170 for recovery, around 180 for easy runs and around 190 for races, maybe 200 for mile pace.
Unlike Mark I can run anything from a bit faster than walking all the way to sprints.
It's like I have 9 or 10 gears. I managed to run with my sister a while a go at around 7:30/km or 12min/mile.
me - I have the task of arriving healthy to the start line on Sunday. I'm at 84kg/189lb and trying to slim down for Sunday, so my lunch was at the salad place instead of the buffets. I always overeat when I hit the buffet.
No more strength work this week, no playing the guitar (cause I sing along and it makes my throat hoarse), sleeping at the right time etc.
I probably still have 2 more GO's at scouting the course in google street view.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
How about this weather. Race is on the 15th
Yea, my back issues come from getting my legs taken out from me while going for a dunk in high school.
I messed it up pretty bad as I came down right in my back with no help from my arms or legs. To keep ku back health it needs constant core work to keep my back in line and leg work (1 leg dips etc) to make sure I keep my left and right sides even in strength.
Flavio - I feel like I'm looking at a Boston forecast: every day around the race, except day of, looks great for a race.
Keen - Did you see my comments on marathon training? just wondering what your thoughts are.
JMac - I do appreciate your (and everyone else's) feedback, it's quite helpful. With specific regard to what you mentioned:
1) Weekly Mileage - I'm nailing this! Working on week #8 of 70+2) Long Runs - ~15 is what I've been doing so far. I'll need to pump those rookie numbers up.3) Threshold Runs - This week was my first doing a pure T run, though those will continue. The 1k reps I do hit both T and VO2 MAX, both, though not as much as a pure workout of either type would.4) Everything else. I guess I'm doing this, too!
I think I'll be able to hit the local group LRs given my girls' soccer schedules this fall, which will make those LRs with quality easier - if not, I can always just suck it up and do them all solo.
I am high cadence. I am around 195 at easy pace. My easy pace is generally on the slow side of easy also (I just have really short strides).
PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)
40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)
2023 PRs (hope to beat in 2024): 5km 20:34, 10km 41:37, half 1:32:32, full 3:21:05
2024 PRs: 5km 20:25