Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2019 (Read 556 times)

JMac11


Benevolent Leader

    Piwi - I love the idea of New Zealand, but I also love traveling around the world, and given ya’ll live in the middle of nowhere, I’m not sure how to deal with that. Anyway I hate the UN General Assembly meeting, worst traffic of the year. I used to live right by the UN and it was a disaster.

     

    Keen - sorry about Boston, sucks you couldn’t get in. Would have loved to meet you in person this year, assuming I decide to bite the bullet and run the damn race. Anyway as we spoke about on Strava this morning, I think you are in very good shape and prone to PR if you are succeeding as much as you are with these JD workouts. Can you remind me why you aren’t going for next Saturday? I feel like you can run a good workout Tuesday, then just easy runs Wed-Fri and still have a chance at PR.

     

    Shoes - has anyone run in the Zoom Fly? I’m considering it. I run in 4MM drop shoes, but with the Vaporfly at 8-10MM, I’m wondering whether I’m properly training the muscles I will be using if I run with those shoes in races. I would like to use them for tempo or MP runs.

     

    They’re on sale right now on Nike and thinking about picking them up. Also, Mark - do you train in the Kinvara? I a new version of the Pureflow and I’m not sure I like them, so I’m looking for alternative 4MM training shoes.  

    5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

     

    Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

    watsonc123


      I have the Zoom Fly version 2.  My recent road races have been in these, plus a few quicker runs.  I like them, quite a drop, has a real rocking feeling.  It's quite a firm ride, so I'm not sure my feet would like training in them every day.  Maybe consider the Pegasus 36?

      PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

       

      40+ PRs: 5km 20:34 (Jan 2019), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

       

      2019 aims: Unlike 2017 & 2018, be consistent.  So get 40+ weeks of 40+ miles incl. two quality sessions (5 weeks achieved so far).

      JMac11


      Benevolent Leader

        Watson - thank you for your reply, I clarified my post as I’m looking to the ZF for tempo/MP runs. My question for Mark was a bit different.

        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

         

        Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

        Marky_Mark_17


           

          Shoes - has anyone run in the Zoom Fly? I’m considering it. I run in 4MM drop shoes, but with the Vaporfly at 8-10MM, I’m wondering whether I’m properly training the muscles I will be using if I run with those shoes in races. They’re on sale right now on Nike and thinking about picking them up. Also, Mark - do you train in the Kinvara? I a new version of the Pureflow and I’m not sure I like them, so I’m looking for alternative 4MM training shoes.  

           

          There are few things more annoying than when you've got a staple training shoe that has worked for ages and then they put out a new model and something has changed materially for the worse.

           

          Yeah, I am a big fan of the Kinvara.  They are a 4mm drop and very light - an ideal training shoe but there's enough to them to hit long runs with a tempo section or progression runs too.  I actually ran my marathon in them - wasn't brave enough to go for flats first time around (I believe Jared Ward ran a 2:09 at Boston in the Kinvara 10).  They're up to the 10 now, the 7, 8 and 9 were all very consistent and basically just slight and steady improvements on what was already a good shoe.  The cushioning is very even throughout the foot.  I use them for all quality sessions at the moment and have done for probably the better part of the last 2 years..

           

          They can feel a little on the soft side if you prefer a firmer trainer, but in that sense they're actually not a world away from the Vaporfly.  Of all the shoes I've worn, they're the one that has the closest under-foot feel to the Vaporfly (albeit there is nothing really like the Vaporfly).

           

          The one downside I've had is that the life on them isn't great.  I tend to wear through most kinds of shoes pretty fast, but I generally notice the forefoot on the Kinvara's (at least the 8's and 9's) starting to deteriorate not far beyond the 250 mile / 400km mark.  I'm very conservative and tend to replace shoes earlier rather than later, but most shoes I would get 500-600km out of.  I think the 11 (due early next year) is expected to be a slightly improved version of the 10 and they have improved the durability a little.

           

          I had been thinking of checking out the Zoom Fly too but I've got a reasonably large stockpile of Kinvara's that I've bought cheaply to work through first.

          5000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 5km: 16:24 (Nov-18) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

          Last race: NZ Road Relays (Leg 2 / 10.2km), 5 Oct, 35:10

          Up next: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov

          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

            Jmac/Mark I hate changing from a trusted shoe too but recently was forced to try something new due to price and availability in NZ. I bought a pair of New Balance Zante Pursuits from Rebel sports at $100NZ on special.

            They have fast turned into my favorite shoes and my Nike Pegasus are like old clunkers compared.

            7 oz and 6mm drop. So comfortable the upper is amazing.

            Great allrounder and fast enough for tempo days.

            50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

            10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

            " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

            Somewhere in between is about right "      

             

            watsonc123


              In my far too big to buy all of them list, I have the Zante and the Pegasus.  The Zante is much better?  They can be purchased on sale at a good price.

              PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

               

              40+ PRs: 5km 20:34 (Jan 2019), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

               

              2019 aims: Unlike 2017 & 2018, be consistent.  So get 40+ weeks of 40+ miles incl. two quality sessions (5 weeks achieved so far).

              dpschumacher


                I too am a big fan of new balance. I have zante, 890, and fuel cell rebels.

                2019 Goal: Run every day

                2019 Goal: Get to 165 lbs

                2019 Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

                CommanderKeen


                Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                  JMac - I think I posted this in sub- 3:20, but I had figured I wasn't getting in with my time. Any chance you'll be in Boston in 2021?? Since getting that rejection email the Dallas marathon is looking better and better.

                  Saturday after next (Muenster) is a race I think I can PR just because it's been so long and I think my fitness is pretty far beyond what it was during my last PR race, but it's not the big goal race. That race is pretty darn hilly, all the middle miles are on gravel, and it's small enough that I'll probably be running solo almost the entire time, so the nature of the race itself isn't conducive to PRs. Last year the TDP started at about 140 under full sun, but the forecast is looking much better already for this year, which will help. I'm thinking about running this between M and HM effort for the first 10 miles (at which point I'l be back on asphalt), then dropping the hammer.
                  The DRC half a month later is the big goal, in which I'm planning on laying it all out. Much flatter course, all pavement, and from past results I should have people to run near for most of the race.


                  Shoe drop - I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but it slipped my mind until JMac brought it up.
                  Lower drop shoes work the Achilles and calf more than higher drop shoes, correct (all else being equal)? So would it follow that usual training in a shoe with lower drop would help build those parts up, and a race in higher drop shoes would basically be "easier" on the Achilles and calf due to some of the strain being taken off of them? Basically helping with endurance some? Or am I just way off in left field here?

                  5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:28:01 4/18 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                   

                  Upcoming Races:

                  DRC Half 11/3

                  Dallas Marathon 12/15

                  Brewing Runner


                  Cat Disliker

                     

                     

                    Shoes - has anyone run in the Zoom Fly? I’m considering it. I run in 4MM drop shoes, but with the Vaporfly at 8-10MM, I’m wondering whether I’m properly training the muscles I will be using if I run with those shoes in races. I would like to use them for tempo or MP runs.

                     

                    *hand raises* Ran Mt. Charleston in them. Picked up the Fly Knit version this year for CIM. I don't like how loose the Fly Knit version is when I'm planting my foot to take a hard turn. The sole grips, but the loose feeling in the Fly Knit feels like I just stepped on a wet plastic surface and I'm going to slide off. The non-vapory fly doesn't give me this feeling. I can't tell you if I notice much difference between the two, other than the non-flyknit feeling more solid in the upper, and I can't say I've noticed my feet being any cooler or hotter in the shoes. I've done all my M pace and faster work in the two Nike shoes since January. I currently wear Topo Fly Lyte 2  for my easy lunch runs. I think the biggest difference I notice is the knit upper, and extra space in the Topos.

                    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                     

                    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                     

                      Keen you would have to be careful that lower drop training shoes don't injure you. Some people will be fine and for others it will start off PF or Achilles tendinitis both of which can last for years.

                       

                      Chris I got my Zante pursuits for just under $100 on one of Rebels sales. My wife got a pair for $112 last weekend on a 40% off sale. My experience has been positive with them but I know shoes are very individual.  They give you a great affordable and accessible option if they work for you.

                      50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

                      10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

                      " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

                      Somewhere in between is about right "      

                       

                      CommanderKeen


                      Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                        Piwi - I'm fine with low (zero, actually) drop shoes - I've spend my last 5-6,000 miles running in them. I've known people to injure themselves going from high drop to low drop shoes, but I can't find ANYTHING about going the other way - from low/no drop to high(er) drop.

                        Of course there's going to be some type of impact, but I'm interested in what it might be when taking stress off the Achilles and calf, rather than adding to it.

                        5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:28:01 4/18 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                         

                        Upcoming Races:

                        DRC Half 11/3

                        Dallas Marathon 12/15

                        Marky_Mark_17


                          Keen - I've trained in a mix of higher drop shoes (Mizuno 9mm) and lower drop (Saucony 4mm), mostly lower drop for the last couple of years.  Racing in the Saucony Fastwitch, which is a 4mm drop, would generally leave my calves feeling fairly beat-up - for 10k races I'd be feeling them for a couple of days afterwards (but not much), for HM's they'd be really tight for a couple of days and then gradually improve over the 2-3 days after that.

                           

                          With the Vaporfly (9mm drop), my quads and hamstrings were what copped the load - didn't really notice in the race but they were pretty sore / tight for several days after the race.  My calves felt totally fresh.

                           

                          I had a chat with my osteo about this and she was of the view it was almost certainly a good thing.  The quads and hamstrings are a bigger muscle group and are therefore better equipped to take the load (assuming you have no pre-existing weaknesses).  Anything that is smashing your calves is also loading your achilles quite a lot.  If you are OK with lower drop shoes then you probably don't have any major calf or achilles issues but all other things being equal it's generally more biomechanically sound to have bigger muscles doing the work than smaller ones.

                          5000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 5km: 16:24 (Nov-18) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

                          Last race: NZ Road Relays (Leg 2 / 10.2km), 5 Oct, 35:10

                          Up next: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          JMac11


                          Benevolent Leader

                            Mark - I definitely prefer a firmer trainer, I feel like squishy shoes just lead to bad form for me. I'm willing to deal with that in a race (e.g. VF4%), but I'm not going to deal with that for easy runs. Thanks for the info.

                             

                            Shoe Drop - I first started running (15-20 mpw) in traditional, clunky, 10-12 mm drop shoes, e.g. ASICS. With those shoes, I was getting so many hip, knee, and other upper leg issues. After doing a ton of research, I switched to 4mm shoes and have never gone back, as all of the issues generally went away. As Mark points out, it's really just a question of which devil you want to deal with. I've started to think you actually want both shoes: low and high drop shoes, so that you're constantly adjusting where you're putting strain.

                             

                            Brew - thanks for checking in: you haven't run in the VF though right? I've heard that some people who have run in both the VF and ZF are not a fan of the ZF, as they feel "clunky"

                            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

                            JamesD


                            JamesD

                              Shoe drop - I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but it slipped my mind until JMac brought it up.
                              Lower drop shoes work the Achilles and calf more than higher drop shoes, correct (all else being equal)? So would it follow that usual training in a shoe with lower drop would help build those parts up, and a race in higher drop shoes would basically be "easier" on the Achilles and calf due to some of the strain being taken off of them? Basically helping with endurance some? Or am I just way off in left field here?

                               

                              Keen-  Racing in high-drop shoes after training in low-drop ones might be easier on your Achilles/calves (if training in the low-drop ones doesn't injure you first), but it might cause trouble elsewhere, maybe your quads or knees.  Lower-drop shoes often make my Achilles hurt, but what worked for me for a couple of years was doing easy/recovery runs (which I assume put less stress on the legs) in lower-drop shoes like Kinvaras and long runs, workouts, and races in higher-drop ones.  That seemed to vary the stresses on my legs, and it may have worked the Achilles/calves some in the way you're interested in.  As many miles as you run, it seems like you could run some in each kind and see how it works.

                              Post-1987 PRs:  5K 19:12 (2017); 10K 39:35 (Sept '19); Half 1:30:14 (March '19)

                              2019 Goals: NO INJURIES, 30+ mpw (ok so far), Half<1:30 (almost), 10K<40 (yes), 5K<19 (no)

                                Nike kinda stabbed themselves in the back by bringing out so many premium priced racing shoes. It forces us to try other brands and that can mean a switch of brand loyalty especially when you find alternatives.

                                 

                                Interesting run out in the countryside for me today. At the carpark sheep were escaping into the carpark from the nearby paddock. I quickly closed the carpark gates as by now had about 100 sheep in there. Then some found a gap and were out on the road. It's a quiet country road but dangerous enough with blind corners. I ran after them but they just kept running further down the road.

                                I gave up and went back up to the carpark where an old guy who owns the farm was waiting. We managed to get all sheep back to where they should be. The hole they escaped through was where thieves had stolen a donation money box and hacked down the mounting post.

                                Anyway I got my run in eventually!

                                50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

                                10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

                                " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

                                Somewhere in between is about right "