Alberto Salazar Hit With Doping Ban (Read 239 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

     

     

    If you ain't cheating you ain't trying. By cheating I mean doing anything it takes to win that's not specifically banned by the rules.

     

    I disagree.  I do think that there is a distinction between the intent and the letter of the rules, and it is important to comply with both.

     

    What we saw here was a continuing effort to meet the letter of the rules while violating the intent, and that should be penalized.

     

    I

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      Maybe I missed the details...

       

      but I'm curious about these drugs that are legal with a doctor's prescription??

      Which drugs and what do they do?

       

      Seems to me everyone would just have a Dr. prescribe them and be legal... sure unethical, but in this professional world....its legal vs illegal not ethical vs unethical.

       

      By legal do you mean legal under the law?  Or legal under USADA/WADA - because those are two different things.

       

      For example, buying testosterone on the black market is illegal under both, while having a doctor prescribe you testosterone and then taking it is legal under US law, but illegal under USADA if you are competing.

       

      As far as illegal under USADA - having a doctor prescribe you a substance banned by USADA does NOT make it automatically allowable (though some try to play dumb and argue such).   There is a TUE process where you can get permission from USADA to take an otherwise banned substance, but you have to apply and submit medical records, including test results, and meet a certain standard, and then you are allowed to take it if USADA grants the TUE.

       

      For an example of what you need to show for a TUE, here's the TUE application for insulin.

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

         

        How is using and experimenting with a non-banned substance at all negative? If you're at the top 1% and not looking into everything you can to improve you're not going to be the best out there. Yeah Carl Lewis was doping but what he was taking wasn't illegal. Top notch athletes want top notch coaches and experimenting with cryogenic therapy isn't banned and at the level of Olympic and World Championship performance you'd better know what's out there. I bet they even have nutritionists in house for Oregon Project to pick what each athlete eats.

        Just because Ablerto was the first one to go there (recently) doesn't mean he cheated. His winning streak ended up being his demise. Nowhere to go but down when you're at the top. More people want to see you fail than succeed when you're up there too. Look at Michael Phelps. One bong hit almost ruined his entire career. After he won all those gold medals he never wears or looks at.

         

        Totally agree, that was kind of my point. Like you said, no athletes testing positive for currently banned substances. Just some use of legal under the counter drugs for conditions they didn't have, in order to reap benefits of some of the side effects. Al's interest in unproven, often placebo effect, treatments like cryogenic therapy or even cupping (did he try that, too?) is an example of his tenacity to find a training edge wherever he could that is still "legal". And using banned substances in amounts that are beneficial but below levels of detectability wouldn't be beyond him, or any other coach of world class athletes. There are very few athletes in the top 1/10th percent that are clean, if any. They themselves may not even know they are juiced, they are just taking the supplements and medications their coach dictates and/or supplies.

        55-59 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying


        Labrat

          Cupping is used primarily to cover the track marks from injecting drugs.

           

          Same as a lot of athletes tattoos.

          5K  20:23  (Vdot 48.7)   9/9/17

          10K  44:06  (Vdot 46.3)  3/11/17

          HM 1:33:48 (Vdot 48.6) 11/11/17

          FM 4:13:43 (Vdot 35.4) 3/4/18

           

          dpschumacher


            A joint pro publica/BBC Panorama effort originally broke the story.  I suggest reading this for details and follow the links within the text to the original reporting.  This set off the whole investigation.  I would also recommend watching the Panorama interviews with Goucher and Magness pointing to specific medical records listing giving Rupp testosterone.  Also using Salazar's own kid as a way to test how much of banned substances will set off a positive result.

             

            It wasn't skirting the edges or putting a toe across the line, it was pretty bold effort to be well over the line, but as much effort as possible to avoid detection.

             

            New

            https://www.propublica.org/article/alberto-salazar-worlds-most-famous-track-coach-is-banned-for-4-years-for-doping-violations

             

            Additional

            https://www.propublica.org/article/elite-runner-had-qualms-alberto-salazar-asthma-drug-performance

             

            Original report

            https://www.propublica.org/article/former-team-members-accuse-coach-alberto-salazar-of-breaking-drug-rules

            2019 Goal: Run every day

            2019 Goal: Get to 165 lbs

            2019 Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

            flyrunnr


              Although this is sorta big news to the running community, what does it really mean? Alberto is not an athlete, he is not competing, he could coach remotely from anywhere and have in-person "coach" give him all the feedback. He is simply going to be moved aside and removed as 'the coach' in paperwork. Not too different from El Chapo.

               

              Is he banned from attending races or events? I don't know the specific requirements of the ban, but I am curious.

              https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

              PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:26:36 (2017)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

              2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: US Club Nationals, Boston '20, Broad Street Run

               


              runktrun

                Although this is sorta big news to the running community, what does it really mean? Alberto is not an athlete, he is not competing, he could coach remotely from anywhere and have in-person "coach" give him all the feedback. He is simply going to be moved aside and removed as 'the coach' in paperwork. Not too different from El Chapo.

                 

                Is he banned from attending races or events? I don't know the specific requirements of the ban, but I am curious.

                 

                Yes, his credentials were revoked in the middle of Worlds.  Now...not sure what the reality is in practice...but in theory, he is banned from events.

                Not running for my health, but in spite of it.

                Brewing Runner


                Cat Disliker

                   

                  I disagree.  I do think that there is a distinction between the intent and the letter of the rules, and it is important to comply with both.

                   

                  Clarification: If you win all the time people will say you're cheating because they can't seem to beat you. Since they're not beating you and can't figure out any way to beat you, you're obviously cheating. Knowing the rules DON'T say you CAN'T use a substance doesn't make it cheating. It makes you able to think outside the box, instead of staying inside where you focus on what the rules say you can't do. Difference between "I CAN ____ because the rules don't prohibit it" and "The rules say you can't" and the intent....is to win. Since most people aren't there when the rules are being discussed it is impossible to know the intent. Otherwise "shall not be infringed" would mean something.

                   

                  For example: Local race doesn't have rules. I CAN put my arms out, or start running Zs and Ws, to block someone from passing me because there isn't anything against it. The race might say I did something "unethical" an award the runner who couldn't pass me. I'm within the rules of racing and it is not MY fault someone got pissed off because they expected me to let them pass for the overall win in a local 5K. Maybe next time they'll think about someone actively trying to block them in a race for that top 3 age group podium finish.

                   

                   

                  Really catwhoorg tattoos are to cover the marks of drugs? I guess every athlete with tattoos is doping and athletic events need to ban tattoos due to this practice.

                   

                  fly: I 100% agree as darkwave mentioned he will still coach but it will be more covert/underground/unofficial. He won't get the credit but curiously runners in some circles will know how to contact him, and when some runners who don't seem to have a  coach start winning these circles will spread information. It's like in the movie Terminal when Tom Hanks reads all the paperwork and finds out the medical polls for animals are allowed to cross the boarder, but prescriptions for humans need paperwork. Alberto isn't a coach, he is a consultant and his 4 years of consulting through a team/company of coaches will be 100% legit because he won't DIRECTLY handle their coaching. "Subject A runs a 3:59 mile. How would you coach Subject A towards an Olympic marathon victory?" type of stuff.

                  1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                  5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                  10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                  Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                  Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                  Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                  *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                   

                  2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                   


                  Labrat

                     

                    Really catwhoorg tattoos are to cover the marks of drugs? I guess every athlete with tattoos is doping and athletic events need to ban tattoos due to this practice.

                     

                     

                    Not every tattoo for sure, but it is a well known use for body art in certain places.

                     

                     

                    Contact/coaching through an intermediary is still a anti-doping rules violation for the athlete, but does become much harder to police.

                    5K  20:23  (Vdot 48.7)   9/9/17

                    10K  44:06  (Vdot 46.3)  3/11/17

                    HM 1:33:48 (Vdot 48.6) 11/11/17

                    FM 4:13:43 (Vdot 35.4) 3/4/18

                     

                    paul2432


                       

                      I disagree.  I do think that there is a distinction between the intent and the letter of the rules, and it is important to comply with both.

                       

                      What we saw here was a continuing effort to meet the letter of the rules while violating the intent, and that should be penalized.

                       

                      I

                       

                      I completely agree with this.  Integrity and sportsmanship matter.  I think we all know what is fair play and what isn't.

                      runnerswhirled


                        I guess every athlete with tattoos is doping and athletic events need to ban tattoos due to this practice.

                         

                         

                        one of many logic fails, dude

                        wcrunner2


                        I'm out of ideas

                           

                          For example: Local race doesn't have rules. I CAN put my arms out, or start running Zs and Ws, to block someone from passing me because there isn't anything against it. The race might say I did something "unethical" an award the runner who couldn't pass me. I'm within the rules of racing and it is not MY fault someone got pissed off because they expected me to let them pass for the overall win in a local 5K. Maybe next time they'll think about someone actively trying to block them in a race for that top 3 age group podium finish.

                           

                           

                           

                          I think most local races implicitly follow USATF rules.  In any case it's within the purview of the RD to DQ a runner for unacceptable behavior.

                          2019 Races:

                               10/26/19 - Piedmont 8-Hour

                               11/23/19 - Crooked Road 24

                          2020 Races:

                               07/11/20 - Ethan Allen 6-Hour

                            flyrunnr


                              Brew - I know you think it's because of his success with NOP that Alberto is under more scrutiny and more often accused of cheating. I just want to point out that you never hear the same allegations about Bernard Lagat's coach or Emma Coburn's coach, Molly Huddle's coach, Shalane's coach, etc. The list goes on for standout athletes that have been at the top of their sport for many years.

                               

                              There have been many people that left Alberto because of his practices and being associated with a group that has been accused of cheating. If you're clean, you get outta dodge and maintain your integrity. Mary Cain, Mo Farah, Kara Goucher, Steve Magness, etc, didn't leave because he was an a-hole or a shitty coach, they left because he was a cheater. Even perception matters.

                              https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

                              PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:26:36 (2017)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

                              2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: US Club Nationals, Boston '20, Broad Street Run

                               

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                My own running coach is directly familiar with Salazar - they both ran professionally in the same era.  My coach has been a very happy man the last few days.

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.