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running in heat vs letting it cool slightly (Read 1691 times)

dallasboycows


    Not that it matters a huge deal as I only have time during the hot sun to run but I was just wandering.  Let's say I can run a track workout and my hr is the exact same for both workouts.  One is in the heat though and my splits are slower.  Do you still get the same benefit from both workouts.  or at least similar.  Or no?  Same thing with my slower runs.  I notice in the heat my HR bumps up about 10 beats per minute.  So if I'm doing a slow jog to improve my base, do I go slightly slower to compensate for the heats effect on my body?


    Fat butt on couch

      For easy runs just get the distance in, and you are fine.  Pace is not so relevant.  Workouts; well, you will certainly get benefit but frankly I don't believe it will be the same benefit....depending how much it slows you down.  Yes, your HR may get as high, but the goal of most workouts has to do with how far you are pushing your aerobic utilization.  Despite higher HR that output is not going towards higher aerobic utilization in the heat, so you won't get the same effect.  You are also not working your legs as hard so you aren't getting quite the same strength stimulus.

       

      Does this mean you shouldn't do them?  Of course not.  Most of us have the option of A) doing the workout in the heat, or B) not doing the workout.  An 80% workout beats no workout any day.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       


      MoBramExam

        Despite higher HR that output is not going towards higher aerobic utilization in the heat, so you won't get the same effect.  You are also not working your legs as hard so you aren't getting quite the same strength stimulus. 

         

        I understand the "strength stimulus" concept, but do have a problem grasping the principal behind the aerobic utilization part.  Always value your input.  Can you help out further on this point? 

        dallasboycows


          I understand the "strength stimulus" concept, but do have a problem grasping the principal behind the aerobic utilization part.  Always value your input.  Can you help out further on this point? 

           The strength simulus part I do agree with because I have got so sore in my previous two 5k's like my legs just aren't ready for it.  Perhaps this has something to do with it. Perhaps I'll try to squeeze in some night runs.  It's still in the high 80's but at least not 100 degrees.  Thanks for the input. 

           

          I found a cool calculator to predict times at other temps as far as racing goes.  Pretty cool if it is at all accurate.  I know acclimitazion and various factors can't be accounted for though.


          Fat butt on couch

            I understand the "strength stimulus" concept, but do have a problem grasping the principal behind the aerobic utilization part.  Always value your input.  Can you help out further on this point? 

             

            Faster workouts accomplish what they do by challenging your aerobic system so that it improves.  This requires hitting a certain level of your VO2max...hence all the recommended training purposes for tempos/intervals etc.  If you cannot hit those effort levels because you are overheating first, you are not going to get the biggest bang for your buck.  Just because your HR gets up as high on a 90F day as it does on a 50F day does not mean you are at the same aerobic exertion level -- part of that cardiac output is being lost to counteracting the heat.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             

              Before 1964 Tokyo Olympic Games, then the national record holder of Japan for 800m, Morimoto, went to West Germany and trained under, can't remember his name, this well-known coach.  His training was going really well, he set the national record of 1:47 something which stood for, gees, 30 some years.  At any rate, Tokyo Olympics was held in October to avoid brutal heat of August/September in Japan.  Well, Morimoto came back to Japan just then, with this coach's training program.  He tried to stick with it despite heat and humidity.  He over-trained and got sick and ran miserably.

               

              Training in the extreme heat and humidity probably has pretty much the same effect as high altitude training except for all the goodies that come with it like mitrchondria development, etc.  As you have noticed, your HR will be a bit higher, in other words, you'll get maxed out at slower pace--this is one of the reasons why, in most cases, except for the late Wanjiru, Olympic marathon won't produce a fast time (along with the championship factor).  One of the most important things under such condition is to go by how you feel--or go by your HR--instead of pace or mileage. 

               

              That said, you will NOT get the SAME training benefits under those conditions.  For one, the pace for easy workout DOES matter because you'll be running, at the same pace, slightly harder (with your HR slightly higher); therefore, your RECOVERY benefit will be less if you try to stick with the PACE.  For faster workout, it is also different because you will be "gasping", on other words, dipping into anaerobid side of the effort at slower pace; hence, your mechanics will not be as adequate.  It is the same argument with high altitude training--at Boston Marathon this spring, I was talking to the Hanson brothers at RW party.  They don't believe in high altitude training.  High altitude training will give you SOME benefits such as better aerobic base, etc.  But you also lose some benefits such as mechanics and, well, heat acclimitization (most Olympics and World Championships are held in the summer).  So if the speed development is your objective, you might want to consider things like downhill intervals to compensate.  Well, in most cases, for most of us, we probably don't have to worry about it that presicely and, therefore, you probably wouldn't have to worry too much about pros and cons of heat or cool condition to begin with! ;o)

               

              I was going to comment on your other thread--about soreness after 5k.  My initial thought was; you weren't even ready for the race!!  Second thought was; yes, go do as much EASY jog as possible because it enhance your recovery.  If it's not helping you, chances are; you are not quite doing it as recovery--i.e.; doing them too hard.  So it's something to think about as a combined reply.

              zonykel


                Running Times magazine has an excellent set of articles this month on running in the heat. I'll look them up later. But if I remember correctly, a group of cyclists trained in the heat for the base part of training. Compared to another group that did base training in cool weather, the cyclists in the "heat" group did better than the other group by about 7% in some sort of time trial or race (don't remember exactly). BTW, both sets of cyclists conducted additional training besides the base training, and it was identical. The only difference between the two groups was the base training. The article states that such gains were similar to those in altitude training. Obviously, more testing is required, to include runners.


                Fat butt on couch

                  Regarding the altitude tangent, this is where the "live high, train low" philosophy came from.  In other words, spend most of your TIME at high altitude, but drive down and train at low altitude.  Obviously there are limited places this works -- you basically need to live on a mountain top then drive to the base to train.  This way you get the acclimation benefits of living at low O2, but can train hard at regular O2 daily.

                   

                  I see where Nobby's going and I think we're saying basically the same thing...I will say that altitude and heat training are different, however.  At altitude, you get to your needed level of aerobic challenge at a slower pace due to lower O2.  At heat the limit is not O2 but typically overheating, so while you are working as hard it isn't quite the same as what happens at altitude.

                   

                  I've spent a limited amount of time training at altitude....the feeling was totally different from running in the heat!  At altitude I felt great until I got in O2 debt, it was an insidious and strange feeling.  Days recently where it's 85F and humid, heck, I can't even get up to decent workout effort as I overheat before I get too far into the workout.  

                  "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                   

                    Maybe it's just me, but having read Spaniel's and Nobby's posts I still don't grock why the aerobic benefit isn't nearly equal for equal efforts. Sure the pace will be faster in cooler temps than in hotter temps, but why isn't the aerobic benefit the same?

                     

                    MTA: In addition to not understanding, I apparently can't type or proof read.

                      Define "aerobic benefit."

                       

                      (Training in the heat sucks. There's a reason those guys and girls are in Eugene, not Miami, and it's not the night life.)


                      Fat butt on couch

                        Maybe it's just me, but having read Spaniel's and Nobby's posts I still don't grock why the aerobic benefit isn't nearly equal for equal efforts. Sure the pace will be faster in cooler temps than in hotter temps, but why isn't the aerobic benefit the same?

                         

                        MTA: In addition to not understanding, I apparently can't type or proof read.

                         

                        When it is hot, part of that perceived effort is from dealing with the heat.  So you aren't running at as high of an aerobic effort even though it feels as hard.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         


                        MoBramExam

                          When it is hot, part of that perceived effort is from dealing with the heat.  So you aren't running at as high of an aerobic effort even though it feels as hard.

                           

                          But is this a "preceived effort", or is the effort real?  I think of aerobic efforts as efforts with oxygen.  There are different levels of aerobic efforts of course.  But if the purpose of the workout is to run at X effort, letting the pace float to whatever it settles on, isn't the overall aerobic effort the same whether or not you slow down due to heat, hills, lack of sleep, etc?

                           

                          But if I'm understanding you right, you are saying that the necessary slow down due to heat is different than one due to say climbing a hill?

                          (Example, regardless of the workout, my intervals ran on a track are always faster than the ones on the road.  The effort is the same.  The aerobic benefits are also equal?  Intervals ran in 50 degrees are faster than ones ran at 80 degress.  The effort is the same.  The aerobic benefits are not equal?)

                           

                          As for training in heat in general, I can see where you would not get the benefit of being able to developing better efficiency at a faster pace.  Less bang for your training minute buck.

                           

                          Really appreciate your's and Nobby"s responses in this thread.  Thanks!

                            I think part of the Heart's output (blood) is utilized to cool your body, and hence not available to fuel your running muscles.  These muscles therefore cannot work as hard (maybe not as many muscle fibers are being used).  I am quite sure I ran at 90-95% effort for a brief while (about a half mile)  last night and my recovery is nearly complete this morning going by my Resting HR.  If I try the same effort in cooler weather, I'll be sore meaning I worked harder at the same effort if that makes sense.

                               Days recently where it's 85F and humid, heck, I can't even get up to decent workout effort as I overheat before I get too far into the workout.  

                               

                              I don't have much to comment on here, but I will say that 85* and humid is much better than 103* and humid.  I assume that "dallasboycows" is from Dallas (as I am), and it's brutal running here in the summer.  At 100* daytime high, 83* nighttime low for 60+/- consecutive days, it's a challenge to get some good outdoor running in.

                              If I run outside at this time of the year, it's at 5 or 6am.  Otherwise, I'm at the gym.

                               

                              Now, with a normal core body temperature of 98.6*, would running in temperatures greater than 98.6* create a different answer (as I think dallasboycows is talking about)?  I understand that the increased heat would speed up the time to overheat, but could you overheat too much within a "normal" running time (ie. 30 - 45 minutes) with those temperatures?  Does your heart rate increase because it's working hard to regulate your core body temperature?

                               

                              As far as HR, I just try to maintain equal HR.  When it's hot, I go slower....

                               

                              Cheers,

                              2014 Goals:

                              #1: Do what I can do. <DOING>

                              #2: 365 Hours training

                               


                              Fat butt on couch

                                But is this a "preceived effort", or is the effort real?  I think of aerobic efforts as efforts with oxygen.  There are different levels of aerobic efforts of course.  But if the purpose of the workout is to run at X effort, letting the pace float to whatever it settles on, isn't the overall aerobic effort the same whether or not you slow down due to heat, hills, lack of sleep, etc?

                                 

                                But if I'm understanding you right, you are saying that the necessary slow down due to heat is different than one due to say climbing a hill?

                                (Example, regardless of the workout, my intervals ran on a track are always faster than the ones on the road.  The effort is the same.  The aerobic benefits are also equal?  Intervals ran in 50 degrees are faster than ones ran at 80 degress.  The effort is the same.  The aerobic benefits are not equal?)

                                 

                                As for training in heat in general, I can see where you would not get the benefit of being able to developing better efficiency at a faster pace.  Less bang for your training minute buck.

                                 

                                Really appreciate your's and Nobby"s responses in this thread.  Thanks!

                                 

                                Define "real".  Effort is determined in part by the brain interpreting signals -- it is perceived.  If you are over-heating trying to run hard in the heat, an effort may feel harder even though you are going slower and not utilizing the same % of VO2max.

                                 

                                We typically relate workouts to effort and usually this works fine.  But if you are comparing workouts run under vastly different conditions, say 50F and 85F, you are now comparing apples to oranges.  It's nice to say this and that the hot workout is not doing anything but like I alluded to before, in the real world, it's semantics.  You probably don't have a choice but to run the workout in 85F or you would not be doing it.  The fact that it may not be quite as good is not something you can do anything about.  Or perhaps you will be racing in hot weather and the heat acclimatization is actually makes it a net benefit for you.  This is why I say you must learn to run by effort, Daniels or McMillan's formulas won't know how the weather is affecting you and if you try to stick to some pace off a chart you may try to push yourself way too hard.

                                 

                                So while I support running by effort, in hot weather it may not be able to hit a workout at the intended VO2max % because the relationship between effort and VO2max % goes a bit wonky.  You still must listen to your effort as driving harder won't get you anywhere but it won't be the same as if you ran that workout on a good day.

                                 

                                Yes, slowing down due to heat is different than a hill.  On a hill you slow down because part of your energy is used to run UP rather than forward.  However the net demand for oxygen, your % VO2max, is at least the same, all else equal.  In the heat not only is some of your cardiac output not going to driving running but running when you are over-heating is just going to FEEL harder, so you aren't going to reach the same % VO2max.  So no, the aerobic benefits are NOT equal.  But unless you have a choice what temps you are going to work out in, it really doesn't matter. Wink  

                                 

                                Nobby said easy run pace is important.  I said it isn't.  We're both right.  I said it was not important because the point of an easy run is not to run at a high % of VO2max, so you have a wide range you can run in and get the same general benefit.  Nobby said it is important because you will have to work harder to run the same pace.  He's right to; my response would be well than slow down a bit, it won't really affect the benefit.

                                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                                 

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