Forums >General Running>WOW - Man charged with trying to run down jogger
not bad for mile 25
In fact, through experience I've gotten to the point that when I am approaching a stop sign or blind curve, I actually cut left and hug the centerline to PREVENT some idiot from passing me where they do not have room.
More than once, I have stopped my bike at the left edge of my lane at an intersection, and the driver following has still pulled over to the left of me, then made a right turn in front of me. If the car behind is actually signaling a right turn and I'm in the way, I don't mind getting off the road for him. Courtesy and defensive driving, you know. And staying alive.
Feeling the growl again
If they want to be an a-hole and make a right turn around in front of me while I am stopped, then fine. A-holes will be a-holes. I don't care what they do once I am stopped, as long as they are not rear-ending me.
However, what I will NOT allow them to do is pass me shortly before the intersection, then lock up the brakes in front of me while I am still going 15-20mph and force me to either a) rear-end them and do a face-plant into their rear window, b) take the left lane and pray that noone is oncoming, or c) take the shoulder/ditch and pray I can stay on my bike and stop without doing a face-plant.
Just as you say....staying alive. Allowing someone to pass me then lock up the brakes is NOT going to help me in any way. There is no "getting off the road" here, the white line is 2" or less from the edge of the pavement. You are either in the lane or you are in the ditch.
Courtesy? Really....few people are courteous to bikers. I'm all about the defense while on a bike but being "courteous" seems to get me nowhere. If I hug the edge of the pavement someone tries to drive me right off, better to hog a little extra lane and give myself some room to manuever...
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
If I hug the edge of the pavement someone tries to drive me right off, better to hog a little extra lane and give myself some room to manuever...
Indeed. This applies to running and cycling.
rectumdamnnearkilledem
It's the old "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile." This time of the year (well, in a normal Winter with actual snow) old biddies in Cadillacs refuse to cross the center line to give me room while running, forcing me to dive into the snowbank to keep from being taken out by their side-view mirror.
Getting the wind knocked out of you is the only way to
remind your lungs how much they like the taste of air.
~ Sarah Kay
This thread is a good example of the tension and bias of both sides. There's the law, and then there's common courtesy. No one's demanding that cyclists endanger themselves, just that they exercise some courtesy. In my experience, cyclist DO tend to behave as jaybar described: riding 2 (or more) abreast, not collapsing it down to 2 abreast or single-file even when they're aware a car has come up behind them, etc. That's a PITA for any car driver, myself included. Sometimes you sit behind them for just a few seconds, but sometimes it's much longer. At 13mph on a speed-limit 35 road, why would any cyclist not expect it to annoy the car drivers?
The business park here attracts cyclists for lunchtime and evening rides, due to its limited traffic and few intersections. I've lost count of the number of times I've come up behind a peloton riding 3 or even 4 abreast ... and which group does not make any move to shrink their road footprint, even when they know I'm there (yes, I can see the mirrors and the head turns). It especially pisses me off because I know these guys are doing it to other motorists who probably aren't cyclists, and I may well find myself sharing the road with those jacked-around-by-cyclists-so-I-hate-them motorists in the future.
I say that as a cyclist. And a lawyer.
"I want you to pray as if everything depends on it, but I want you to prepare yourself as if everything depends on you."
-- Dick LeBeau
To clarify, most of the time I WOULD stay to the side and be courteous. But as zoom-zoom said, "give an inch they take a mile." There are certain times (blind corners, approaching intersections) where being courteous becomes a danger to the cyclist because it allows the car driver to put the cyclist in a dangerous position by passing in an unsafe manner. In those situations, courtesy be danged, I'm going to do what is needed to make it home alive. As soon as I'm either stopped at the intersection or through it, or around the corner to where they can pass safely, I'll let them over.
Can't say I've ever been involved in riding 3-4 abreast. I've been so unnerved by what drivers have put me through on a bike that I loaned my road bike out 2 years ago and haven't bothered to get it back yet.
Courtesy is a funny thing. I've actually had drivers shout at me for not being courteous because I was running on the left side of a road with no shoulder and did not get completely off the road -- which would require jumping into a ditch -- so that they could drive by without slowing down. To me, courtesy means BOTH sides make reasonably accomodations for each others' convenience and safety, NOT just that a car driver gets where they are going as fast as possible.
To clarify, most of the time I WOULD stay to the side and be courteous. But as zoom-zoom said, "give an inch they take a mile." There are certain times (blind corners, approaching intersections) where being courteous becomes a danger to the cyclist because it allows the car driver to put the cyclist in a dangerous position by passing in an unsafe manner. In those situations, courtesy be danged, I'm going to do what is needed to make it home alive.
This is what I'm talking about. I've had the hair on my forearm shaved a few times, too, but it hasn't yet instilled in me the view that every motorist is an asshole. I watch out for ME, but I also communicate courtesy. Coming out of the drops and up on the hoods; looking for a gap in oncoming traffic and waving the trailing motorist to pass; even just a wave of acknowledgement as they pass with room -- all of these things work to make one a positive ambassador for cyclists. The groups I ride with (one LBS, one random) does these things diligently. Many other groups I see around town do not.
Courtesy is a funny thing. I've actually had drivers shout at me for not being courteous because I was running on the left side of a road with no shoulder and did not get completely off the road -- which would require jumping into a ditch -- so that they could drive by without slowing down. To me, courtesy means BOTH sides make reasonable accommodations for each others' convenience and safety, NOT just that a car driver gets where they are going as fast as possible.
My own family has failed to realize that the lush green grass they see on the side of the road as they whiz by is actually lumpy ankle-busting terrain. I do what I can to educate drivers. Maybe it looks stupid, but as I'm running down the edge of the road, I've no qualms about pointing to the ground and shrugging, or even deliberately flailing an arm as though my balance is at issue. The goal isn't for me to look cool or exercise my right-of-way, it's to run safely. If my little point-n-shrug somehow makes a driver realize I'm trying to be nice but there's just no shoulder there, that's a win for me and my fellow runners. For that outcome, I don't mind looking stupid or adding a few seconds onto that mile split.
But yeah, some folks are aggressive assholes. Probably nothing you can do but survive them. But in my mind, that doesn't justify not even trying to educate them (as long as I keep myself safe).
This is what I'm talking about. I've had the hair on my forearm shaved a few times, too, but it hasn't yet instilled in me the view that every motorist is an asshole. I watch out for ME, but I also communicate courtesy.... I do what I can to educate drivers... But yeah, some folks are aggressive assholes. Probably nothing you can do but survive them. But in my mind, that doesn't justify not even trying to educate them (as long as I keep myself safe).
This is what I'm talking about. I've had the hair on my forearm shaved a few times, too, but it hasn't yet instilled in me the view that every motorist is an asshole. I watch out for ME, but I also communicate courtesy....
I do what I can to educate drivers...
The problem is that it only takes one aggressive asshole to turn an attempt to be courteous into a tragic knock on the door for my wife. Like you I am courteous to drivers whenever possible (when running I WILL get entirely off the road, if it is safe, if I know there is another car coming behind and they can't use the other lane to get by). This includes on a bike. However, I don't feel the need to apologize for doing what some drivers may consider un-courteous when I feel it is necessary to safe-guard my well-being. I run and ride defensively, and sometimes this means I must do things some others on the road may not like. In car vs athlete the winner will be clear, so I can live with that (literally).
As for educating drivers, I'm not sure what can be done effectively at the 45-60mph that is typical where I run/ride. Perhaps you've got better people around you...where I live, any motioning or attempts to "educate" drivers who all-too-often are aggressive types (that is why they are driving aggressively in the first place!) that don't want to be educated can (and has) lead to nasty encounters.
In the one encounter I mentioned in a post above, I was running on a road with no shoulder and the fog line right on the edge of the pavement, with a ditch to the side. An SUV was approaching and as it was clear they were not going to yield, I did point to the ditch and make a waving motion with the other hand to try to signal them that I had nowhere to go and they needed to give me some space (there was no other traffic, they had room). The result was that the driver made a deliberate swerve at me, forcing me into the ditch. Then they turned around, passed me on the other side, turned around again, and took a SECOND pass at me. A cop witnessed the second incident but refused to do anything because the centerline was the edge of his jurisdiction and I was on the wrong side of it. That's an extreme example but I've got a ton of similar but much more moderate examples where people yelled back, mock-swerved at me, or threw something out the window at me. This taught me not to make eye contact --and certainly not motion/try to talk -- with drivers doing aggressive things as it's only going to escalate the situation. Too many are looking for an encounter, and they're the ones with 2 tons of steel to use.
Thankfully I don't live in those areas anymore and deal with very little traffic.
Since I brought the word courtesy into this thread, I should clarify what I meant by getting out of the way. There are a couple of intersections on my daily commute where traffic streams from both the east and the west, and I need to turn left when there's a gap. This sometimes takes quite a while. If a driver behind me is signalling a right turn, odds are that s/he will get a chance to go well before I would. If that is evident, I may move over to the sidewalk so that they can get out. If they don't signal, though, forget it.
I absolutely do not advocate riding in the gutter or on the very edge of the road. You need to assert your right to the lane you're using. Then, if en emergency does arise, you at least have a bit of room to move to the right.
There are assholes driving cars, and assholes on bicycles, and even runners who are assholes (if you can believe it). They're a minority, but it's best to assume that everyone with whom you are sharing the road is a potential asshole/idiot/homicidal maniac.
True. But when I see an idiot on a bike I think "at least they're not piloting 2 tons of metal near me"... better an idiot riding a bike than an idiot driving a car....
And let's not forget the dog owners.
The process is the goal.
Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.
People who run with dogs are the worst.
"When a person trains once, nothing happens. When a person forces himself to do a thing a hundred or a thousand times, then he certainly has developed in more ways than physical. Is it raining? That doesn't matter. Am I tired? That doesn't matter, either. Then willpower will be no problem." Emil Zatopek
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You're being too easy on the people who cycle with dogs.
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
I just don't see enough of them. There's a guy with a weimaraner who mountain bikes some of the same trails that I run. He and the dog go by in a freaking blur. The dog wears bells. The sound of the bells weaving through the forest freaked me out the first time. Winding trails, bells from all around...sunset...
Honestly, I was too busy being impressed that the dog was heeling next to the bike at speed to be upset that I almost got ran over.
I've got a fever...
abreast
Heh
On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office. But you will wish that you'd spent more time running. Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.