Forums >Racing>1600/3200 Track shape
Are we there, yet?
I very much agree with you, and I had reservations about posting that., But that's not how I see any HS kids race today, in my limited recent viewing. It seems that they are all programmed to go out substantially faster than their average pace, and then just hang on. (e.g in one race the 4:30 winner went out low 60's, and many guys that finished in the 4:40s were right on his tail). Maybe it's all bad coaching, or this thinking that unless you go out really hard, you can't run a fast time. I know that's the message my son hears every day.
I very much agree with you, and I had reservations about posting that., But that's not how I see any HS kids race today, in my limited recent viewing. It seems that they are all programmed to go out substantially faster than their average pace, and then just hang on. (e.g in one race the 4:30 winner went out low 60's, and many guys that finished in the 4:40s were right on his tail).
Maybe it's all bad coaching, or this thinking that unless you go out really hard, you can't run a fast time. I know that's the message my son hears every day.
Like spaniel said, just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right. I faced the same situation when I coached back in the 70s and 80s. It often took a while to convince my runners that they should not follow the leader and run their own pace. Usually all it took was one race where it worked successfully for one of the runners for everyone else to begin to adopt it too. The most impressive example with any of the runners I coached was a mile race at the league championship meet. My runner was dead last in 69 at the quarter with the leader running 63. Each lap my runner moved up a little in the field and finally took the lead just before the 3/4 mark and won going away. His splits: 69, 70, 70, 69 for a winning time of 4:40 and winning margin of 5 seconds.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
Why is it sideways?
Just to argue the other side:
I think that a lot of what you are teaching at the high school level with new runners is that they are capable of a lot more than they believe they are capable of. Coaches see what kids can do better than they see it themselves. So, they ask kids to go out at what they are capable of doing, but for a variety of reasons -- lack of focus, lack of experience, fear, doubt -- kids collapse in the middle of the race. Then parents, internet knuckleheads like me, say things like "That coach must be an idiot -- look how his kids race." But the coach may be seeing a much larger picture than that single race.
Yes, there are a ton of knucklehead coaches out there, but sometimes teaching kids how to race is different than demanding that they run even splits.
Just to argue the other side: I think that a lot of what you are teaching at the high school level with new runners is that they are capable of a lot more than they believe they are capable of. Coaches see what kids can do better than they see it themselves. So, they ask kids to go out at what they are capable of doing, but for a variety of reasons -- lack of focus, lack of experience, fear, doubt -- kids collapse in the middle of the race. Then parents, internet knuckleheads like me, say things like "That coach must be an idiot -- look how his kids race." But the coach may be seeing a much larger picture than that single race. Yes, there are a ton of knucklehead coaches out there, but sometimes teaching kids how to race is different than demanding that they run even splits.
The coach seeing the bigger picture is probably about 10% of the time, and I'm being generous.
My daughter is not very fast but by virtue of having a parent who is a semi-competitive hobbyjogger, she's at lest more educated than the typical high school runner. This will be her first year running all 3 seasons: XC, winter and spring track. Previously she played field hockey fall and did winter and spring. Turns out her best season is XC. Part of that is the XC coach is actually really good. But I digress.
Her coach for winter is completely clueless. My daughter ran the 1000 mostly and her coach's advice to her after about the 2nd meet was that she needed to go out faster to stay in contact with the leaders. Because what he observed with his eyes (and without looking at splits) was that she would often let the leaders go, and then gradually reel them in over the course of the race, oftentimes she would work her way up and nab 3rd place but never 2nd or 1st.
This was not happening because she was running even splits. Her splits were usually violently positive, just less so than everyone else's. Her goal for 1000 was, say 3:30-3:35 so she really only needed to run 43-44s for each 200 and as it was she was taking it out in 38 when the leaders were going out in 35-36--or worse, taking it out in 36 when the leaders were going out in 33-34. She was blowign up badly at the end of races (but still reeling in some people who were blowing up even worse) and yet her coach's only advice was to take it out harder. This was really frustrating to her. I told her that she could, respectfully and politely, challenge him by understanding her own races really well. I said, "Ask him what he thinks your 200m split should be. Tell him you're already going out in 36-38 when goal pace is more like 43, 44 and so how much faster does he think you can take it out without completely blowing up (even worse than you already are)?"
She did all that and her description of the conversation with the coach was priceless. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for that. Now she knows she is going to have to manage her coach for the next 3 track seasons (spring, winter, spring) but at least she knows she can expect good coaching in XC season for her senior year.
And I've observed this exact same type of boneheaded instruction from lots of coaches of lots of teams. It's way more the norm than the exception. I mean I know high school track coaches are practically volunteers with what we pay them so we can only expect so much. But still.
Runners run
On the other side my HS coach was actually really good about instilling pacing in us. Every single workout was geared towards running even, and he announced the race assignments with goal splits for anything over a 400. I think in retrospect my coach emphasized even/negative splitting to a fault. One of our 800 guys was basically 2:01-2:02, and at practice coach would tell him to shoot for 60-59.
...Then, even when we got out 3s fast the first 200 of a 3200, he'd lie and tell us a lap split that was a second or two slower than we actually ran, so we wouldn't panic.
Know thyself.
You can usually tell the good high school coaches by the consistency of the team.
Back to the OP, a HS 16:50 5k runner will be doing significantly better than 4:50 by the end of the track season, but speed can come later in the season when it counts.
The process is the goal.
Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.
You can usually tell the good high school coaches by the consistency of the team. Back to the OP, a HS 16:50 5k runner will be doing significantly better than 4:50 by the end of the track season, but speed can come later in the season when it counts.
Very, very true!
She did all that and her description of the conversation with the coach was priceless. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for that. Now she knows she is going to have to manage her coach for the next 3 track seasons (spring, winter, spring) but at least she knows she can expect good coaching in XC season for her senior year. And I've observed this exact same type of boneheaded instruction from lots of coaches of lots of teams. It's way more the norm than the exception. I mean I know high school track coaches are practically volunteers with what we pay them so we can only expect so much. But still.
Mikey,
So, what was the coaches response to the "first 200m split" question?
I ask becuase my son's situation is very similar. After the sectional XC meet last fall, as my son just finished his slowest race of the season (he got worse as the season progressed), the coach came up to me and said, "he needs to run his first mile faster to be competitive." I responded, "Do you realize if he had maintained his pace at the mile (about 5:25) he would have been the teams #1 runner?" My wife said it came across very well -- not necessarily how I intended it. The coach quietly walked off and said no more.
I'm a bit frustrated right now because of how I see track unfolding. His first two indoor races were both PRs in the 1600m and 3200m (mostly off of training that he did on his own over the winter). Now, after about 4 weeks of organized practiced, I'm sensing the beginning of the backwards slide, just as XC unfolded. His 3200m race today was a major disappointment, and barely at a pace he does mile repeats at in practice.
I'll just add that the coaches around here are NOT volunteers and get paid a rather nice stipend.
Mikey, So, what was the coaches response to the "first 200m split" question?
She said he got a bit flustered and stammered something about going out faster, then moved on to someone else. He did seem to respect her a lot more after that and treat her more like one of the team leaders in workouts etc. So in that sense it worked out.
Our coaches aren't volunteers either but they don't make much for what they actually do. They mostly do their best and I try to give them a lot of the benefit of the doubt but ... yeah.
Ok, I see that you guys are right.
There is a track program at a certain school that I am familiar with and they have a really talented runner. He's got pure speed (49 open quarter) and is a natural distance runner (top ten at State XC.) He was running well indoors (opened in 1:54ish for the 800, no speedwork) and he just did this great workout (but more than a little over the top) that was 16 x 400 w/90s rest in 63-64. The kid to my mind is ready to run 4:15/1:52 or faster for the mile this year.
First podunk dual meet, the coach has him run the mile and instructs him to take it through 1200 in 3:09 then back off and jog it in. I thought this was pretty extreme given this is a time trial situation, he would be running solo, low key meet, etc. So, of course, the kid goes out in 28/61, then goes 66, 70, 71 for a 4:28. The kid is disappointed in himself, but the coach set him up to blow up.
What if the coach had told him to run in second place for the first 800? The would have come through in 2:20ish, felt like he was holding back, then he could have blow the doors off the second half, run the same time, and felt like he had more in the tank.
Ok, I see that you guys are right. What if the coach had told him to run in second place for the first 800? The would have come through in 2:20ish, felt like he was holding back, then he could have blow the doors off the second half, run the same time, and felt like he had more in the tank.
Not only that, wouldn't that be better preperation/training for a race later in the season?
Yes -- but to be fair, this guy is an experienced, well read coach with a long history of success. He's much more accomplished and experienced as a coach than I will ever be. He himself was a competitive runner, much faster than I ever was. He works his butt off every day with this athlete and with many others...
Maybe sometimes coaches want it so bad for their athletes that they don't think clearly.
Or maybe, on another day, this kid woulda hit 63, 63, 63, then gotten so fired up that he was running out of his mind that he closed in 60. Then, everyone would have said: look how evenly that coach's guys run. He negative-split a 4:09!
Feeling the growl again
I ask becuase my son's situation is very similar. After the sectional XC meet last fall, as my son just finished his slowest race of the season (he got worse as the season progressed), the coach came up to me and said, "he needs to run his first mile faster to be competitive." I responded, "Do you realize if he had maintained his pace at the mile (about 5:25) he would have been the teams #1 runner?" My wife said it came across very well -- not necessarily how I intended it. The coach quietly walked off and said no more. I'm a bit frustrated right now because of how I see track unfolding. His first two indoor races were both PRs in the 1600m and 3200m (mostly off of training that he did on his own over the winter). Now, after about 4 weeks of organized practiced, I'm sensing the beginning of the backwards slide, just as XC unfolded. His 3200m race today was a major disappointment, and barely at a pace he does mile repeats at in practice. I'll just add that the coaches around here are NOT volunteers and get paid a rather nice stipend.
Let me guess, he's hammering them to death with interval workouts and overly-frequent meets?
The response is going to depend on the coach and situation. Your son doesn't HAVE to go out at the pace he is told to. He can go out at a reasonable pace, and I expect while he may get yelled at at the split when he ends up finishing better the coach (if he has a bit of sense knocking around in his head) will realize the kid is onto something and let him do it his way.
Short of pulling him from the team, there's not a lot you can do about practice and the meet schedule, which is typically what drives HS kids into the ground. You could talk to the coach, but in my experience that often doesn't get you very far. I recall trying to explain to my 8th grade track coach that dozens of 200 yard repeats for practice every day was not going to help me in the 3200m but it didn't get me anywhere.
At some level you want to teach your kid to respect their coach, but they also need to learn that adults aren't perfect and sometimes they need to look out for their own interests. I'd tell my kid to moderate the practices, ask for less events, or run soft in certain events in order to perform in others. There is always the risk of retribution....being benched, pulled from events, etc....but allowing the kid to be over-trained season after season is a good way to make them walk away from a life-long healthy habit. And THAT would be the biggest loss.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
I am a high school boys' track and XC coach and runner. I'm 46 and I have been coaching at my alma mater since 2002. I have also coached girls and both men and women at the college level. I have had success and failures. I have made mistakes. I also think the vast majority of coaches I know are good at what they do. I'm by no means here to defend coaches, but the tone of this thread makes it sound like most coaches are absolute buffoons, with the very best among them sporting an IQ of 60. I think one poster even said 90% of coaches are incompetent. That's my word, but I think it captures the gist.
Why would this one profession be so full of people with no idea what they are doing? Don't you think coaches want kids to succeed? These days, it is so hard to be stupid. To be ignorant of good training techniques would require an almost conscious effort to do so. Is there any possibility that when a kid's results aren't as good as hoped, that people are Monday morning quarterbacking? "The coach should have done this."
I do the best I can for my kids. I am always trying to improve myself as a coach. Sometimes things don't work out. I have revisited my decisions after disappointing performances and decided I could have done things differently. Most of the time though, I look back and say that I would probably make the same decisions.
We don't know what is going to happen when the gun goes off. We also don't know which kid didn't eat a good lunch. Which kid was up most of the night on his smart phone and got three hours of sleep. Which kid got drunk the night before. I have two kids of my own, 21 and 17 and I don't delude myself into thinking they're perfect little angels.
All I am saying is that it's easy to say the coach is incompetent. If the kid (your kid?) went out and broke state records, would you just as reflexively say the coach is a genius?
Yeah, well...sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand.
I am a high school boys' track and XC coach and runner. I'm 46 and I have been coaching at my alma mater since 2002. I have also coached girls and both men and women at the college level. I have had success and failures. I have made mistakes. I also think the vast majority of coaches I know are good at what they do. I'm by no means here to defend coaches, but the tone of this thread makes it sound like most coaches are absolute buffoons, with the very best among them sporting an IQ of 60. I think one poster even said 90% of coaches are incompetent. That's my word, but I think it captures the gist. Why would this one profession be so full of people with no idea what they are doing? Don't you think coaches want kids to succeed? These days, it is so hard to be stupid. To be ignorant of good training techniques would require an almost conscious effort to do so. Is there any possibility that when a kid's results aren't as good as hoped, that people are Monday morning quarterbacking? "The coach should have done this." I do the best I can for my kids. I am always trying to improve myself as a coach. Sometimes things don't work out. I have revisited my decisions after disappointing performances and decided I could have done things differently. Most of the time though, I look back and say that I would probably make the same decisions. We don't know what is going to happen when the gun goes off. We also don't know which kid didn't eat a good lunch. Which kid was up most of the night on his smart phone and got three hours of sleep. Which kid got drunk the night before. I have two kids of my own, 21 and 17 and I don't delude myself into thinking they're perfect little angels. All I am saying is that it's easy to say the coach is incompetent. If the kid (your kid?) went out and broke state records, would you just as reflexively say the coach is a genius?
If you are so confident of the bolded statement as to build your entire post around it, then quote it. Because the fact is, nobody actually said that. Mikely said only 10% get the big picture, but that is a hell of a way from saying 90% are downright incompetent. So the entire premise of your knee-jerk reaction post is false.
There is a big difference between being well-intentioned and being well-informed. In my experience....which spans junior high, HS, college, sub-elite, and elite coaching....the average HS track/ XC coach is not all that informed on training distance runners. Not to say they don't do the best they know of.
The fact is, most HS coaches are chosen by who volunteers, rather than some search of who is actually knowledgeable and qualified to coach distance runners. Some are good with throwers or sprinters (my junior high coach) but know nothing about distance runners.
Frankly, HS track coaches are not a PROFESSION. They are a grouping of teachers and other (usually) school staff who volunteer for the job. They are typically not brought up and specifically trained for the task.
Spaniel,
I don't post on this forum often, but I read it frequently. Based on what I have read of you - and Mikey - I have a genuine respect for both of you. I seem to have misrepresented Mikey's comment because I didn't go back and read it. I don't think anything I said was knee-jerk or warranted what I sense as hostility. I could be wrong, but that's how I took your post.
I was very honest about saying I have made mistakes as a coach. So I am not coming from a standpoint of defending myself. I have never had a problem telling the kids when I screwed up. Thankfully, I think I get it right more often than not.
No one can make any credible blanket statements about "most coaches" because no one knows what is going on at every school in the country. In my little corner of the world, I know good coaches and bad coaches. Most are good. By good, I mean dedicated, knowledgeable, enthusiastic, innovative, and other superlatives.
Many, I can't put a percentage on it, of the high school coaches I know are coaching track and XC because it is a passion of theirs. Most have been runners since their own high school days. Where I am, the idea of a coach just being some casual person from the building is a foreign concept. Not saying it doesn't happen as I am sure it does. It's just not my experience.
I'm surprised sometimes by the nastiness I see on this board. It's not the norm, but as a frequent reader and rare poster, I am disheartened by the more than occasional hostility. I have used the training log here since the beginning and really do enjoy reading the forums. But I have always felt there is a hierarchy and a demand for deference to the most frequent posters, best runners, and to those who would invest the energy in making this a vibrant community.