The Waltons aka Advanced Half Marathon Training Thread - 2022 edition (Read 361 times)

zebano


     

     

    I have a question about the recovery portion of an interval workout.  I did the 5 x 1k w/ 600m Hanson workout today and at the slower 10k pace I was able to slowly jog for the recovery whereas before when I was using a faster 10k pace I usually needed to walk the first part of the recovery.  Do you guys ever walk for recovery, if so what kinds of workouts?  Or is only needing a slow job something to strive for?  Or does recovery pace not matter at all as long as you hit your target pace for the intervals?

     

    tl;dr; It really depends on the workout IMO.

     

    VO2, LT the goal is usually to keep those in the right HR zone /effort level so usually jogging the recovery is better as the HR won't go down as much (or if walk/standing it has to be a much shorter rest). Running Economy workouts tend to be all about having ideal form so standing around  or walking for awhile makes a lot of sense. OTOH if I'm doing mile reps because I plan to race the mile, I do want to make those more race specific as time goes on and either jog them or shorten the standing rest. If you're doing 10k paced reps towards racing a 10k then jogging or easy running is just better than standing  or walking. My favorite workouts are "alternations" where the rest is a quick jog, maybe as fast as marathon pace and when I can do something like 16x[200@  5km + 200@M] then I know I'm in great shape and ready to race, but that's also not a workout I'd ever do in summer heat & humidity. My biggest (subjective) bump in fitness came when I started doing those occasionally.

     

    Ultimately I think hitting target pace is most important, but target pace plus a quicker recovery is even better if you don't have to "go to the well" to do so. Note that quicker recovery could be taking standing rest from 2:00 -> 1:00 but for our sport I do think jogging is more race  specific.

    1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

    CommanderKeen


    Aspiring Hobby Jogger

      Piwi - My OKC basketball knowledge has also faded since Adams was traded and you stopped following them.


      Flavio - Let us know if you get any more shapely volunteers.
      Having to be a member of any group other than "people with disposable income" to run a race seems rather strange to me.


      Caitlin - Outside of the running volume (and heat for the double) the day before was just tiring and I didn't get to sleep until a couple hours after I usually do.

      I think level of activity during recoveries is pretty individual. Usually I'll do a slow jog, but when the heat/humidity really sets in and I'm doing bigger workouts I'll probably go slower or even walk a bit if I need to.


      I just booked a flight and hotel for a work trip to Chicago in a month and am, of course, looking to see if there are any races I could run while there.

      5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

       

      Upcoming Races:

       

      Riverside 5000 - 8/13

      Wurst Race Half - 10/8

      CIM - 12/4

        Caitlin I do a slow jog recovery for a set time rather than distance. I used to just stand but that was when I first started and didn't know better.

         

        Zeb the last one was 35 secs which equated to 2.55 km pace. I think that's about world record marathon pace. It's very sobering that while I'm out of control sprinting someone can hold that for 2 hours 

         

        Flavio don't sell yourself short. Your 1500m time is awesome.

        Can you explain more about that ridiculous test. Why do you have to do it ?

        Over here I'm pretty sure you just join a proper running club or something to be an Athletics NZ member.

         

        Keen OKC had a bad year in basketball as they are rebuilding. In fact the Grizzlies beat them by over 60 points which was an NBA record.

         

        James that's badass. I'm not messing with you or you might make me disappear 

        I wish I was that interesting but I'm a 50 year old guy who drives a Toyota Corolla

        50+ PBs -  

        5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

        10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

        Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

        " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

        Somewhere in between is about right "      

         

        Marky_Mark_17


          Flavio - that is some crazy bureaucracy!  As Piwi says, here in NZ you just need to be a registered member of a club affiliated to Athletics NZ.

           

          Caitlin- I have heard of standing or walking rests but personally I always go for jog recoveries.  I believe jog recoveries are actually more effective for recovery between intervals as they help to clear the lactic acid from your muscles.  If you're dealing with really hot / humid weather, as Keen suggests, walking may be a good option then.

           

          Piwi - nothing wrong with Toyota Corollas!  I had one that got up to 250,000 km and still ran well.  Then I sold it to a mate and last I heard it was still going good.  Cheap as anything to service as well.  Cost like $150 to get the cambelt replaced at 200,000... my Subaru was about 6x that!

           

          Keen - hooray for run tourism!

          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

          * Net downhill course

          Last race: Southern Lakes HM, 7 May, 1:12:42 (May-22)

          Up next: Auckland 10km Road Champs, 21 August

          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

            Caitlin - My coach often tries to get me to do standing or walking recoveries but I've never managed it.  I like to keep the jogging motion even if I'm not moving much faster than walking pace.  Maybe that's cheating because it makes starting the next one easier than starting from a walk.  For VO2 max type intervals, I'll keep them really slow (6-8 min/km pace) but with longer tempo type repeats at MP like I'll be doing for marathon training I just drop back to "easy" pace which doesn't give me as fast of a recovery but helps with the slow build up of fatigue that we're going for.  MP also doesn't have me gasping for breath with legs that feel like jelly so doesn't require the same sort of recovery.

             

            Flavio - That's a crazy requirement and not really using the latest science.

             

            Fred - Glad to hear your sister is recovering well.  I think the odds of serious illness has always been very low but it wouldn't feel like it when it's in your face due to the sheer numbers.

             

            piwi - Haha!  I did look at the menu for massages and treatments but that seems to be how they make most of their cash.  $200+ for a massage?  No thanks.  It's great there when it's bucketing down, as it often is in the Southern Alps/West Coast, and really cold.  Pretty much all we do is have a drink in the room, walk 50 metres to the pools and repeat every hour or so.  There's only so long I can handle the heat of the pools, unless I jump in the plunge pool.  And the pools never close so it's nice at 5am in the pitch black with no-one else around.

             

            Keen - Very nice week.  Don't let that Garmin push you round!

             

            zebano - Sorry if I missed it elsewhere and I can't see it on the front page, what is the race you have coming up?  Your training has been great, this could be a big one!

             

            Hash - Yep, that is what I found too.  It was a simple house sale with the complication of power of attorney being activated, which surely is still quite common.  2 full months before it went on the market, I gave the lawyer a heads up and asked them to make doubly sure that the power of attorney was in place and I'd get no surprises during the house sale (the same firm set up POA and handled the house sale), so I was very disappointed when 1 week before settlement, and the night before my race 2 weeks ago, the lawyer told me there was a problem with POA because a successor attorney never signed the agreement thus making the whole thing invalid - this wasn't the law in 2013 when it was set up, but became law in 2016 and was retrospectively applied.  Finally, 3 days before settlement the senior partner got involved and decided they would "interpret" the law in my favour with agreement from the purchaser so the sale could go ahead.  This was after I sent them a screenshot of the message I'd sent them 2 months earlier asking them to get ahead of any such issues, basically putting them on notice.  Anyway, it's all done now but not without extra stress I didn't need and a ruined weekend in Queenstown, apart from the race.

            Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

            Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

            Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

            watsonc123


              I normally jog the recoveries.  Although I've heard of very good runners who will do walking recoveries for certain intervals, generally short & quicker intervals where top end speed is the aim.

               

              Could Portugal make it harder to be a registered athlete!  In New Zealand, joining an affiliated club is all that is needed (small caveat is that some clubs have two membership types being competitive and social, where only competitive members get registered with Athletics NZ).

               

              Steve - although the POA issue was a massive PITA, the big thing is the sale went through.  With the housing market downturn, selling right now can be slow (I realize Christchurch is less effected than Auckland and Wellington).

               

              Mark - I suspect Cambridge would be a quick course?

               

              Re Wellington  marathon (incl. half and 10km), no wind (very unlikely) or a light to mild southerly will provide good conditions.  The Northerly is the worst and it picks up during the morning (so stronger returning into the wind) plus it can be blustery it can really effect rhythm.

               

              Physio went pretty well, I am allowed a bit more running now.  I ran 7km last night, pretty well.

              PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

               

              40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

              SteveChCh


              Hot Weather Complainer

                watson - Yeah for sure - but it did lead to me spending the weekend planning for getting a court order fast tracked, working out how I would cover the purchasers costs for missing settlement etc etc.  I even looked into flying to Brisbane to get the named successor to sign, but there were extremely limited flights - I had to take the scenic route potentially via Singapore and was looking at $3000+...hopefully flights return to normal soon, but even now, if you have an emergency it's not easy to get anywhere.

                 

                Yeah the dreaded Northerly makes running around that waterfront very tough.  Thankfully I'm only doing the half and not even racing it (so the conditions are likely to be perfect!).

                Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                Marky_Mark_17


                   

                  Mark - I suspect Cambridge would be a quick course?

                   

                  Looks like nice countryside running but not super-quick.  There's a few undulations and one larger hill... according to the elevation profile the total climbing is around 140m, which puts it only slightly short of the Auckland half.  But hopefully a decent field given it's NZ Half Marathon Champs.

                   

                  I've got a roll-over entry to Nelson Half around 3 weeks later which looks pretty much dead flat.

                   

                  I've run that Wellington waterfront in a screaming northerly and... it wasn't fun.  It would be a very nice course on a good day.

                  3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                  10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                  * Net downhill course

                  Last race: Southern Lakes HM, 7 May, 1:12:42 (May-22)

                  Up next: Auckland 10km Road Champs, 21 August

                  "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                  flavio1980


                  Intl. correspondent

                    Keen - You’ve been quite the jet setter this year 😎

                     

                    Piwi - Here it’s like in NZ, you must be a member of a run club. Said run club requires people to do a full medical checkup before becoming a member, and that checkup includes the dreaded treadmill test.

                    Also don’t sell yourself short, how many 50 year olds out there drive a Toyota Corolla AND can walk on the water? Out of those how many draw the shape of a heart when doing their runs?

                     

                    Steve - It looks like bureaucracy somehow finds its way in every country.

                     

                    Watson - that’s good news

                    PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                    Up next: Some 5k race in September

                    Tool to generate Strava weekly

                    zebano


                      Caitlin - My coach often tries to get me to do standing or walking recoveries but I've never managed it.  I like to keep the jogging motion even if I'm not moving much faster than walking pace.  Maybe that's cheating because it makes starting the next one easier than starting from a walk.  For VO2 max type intervals, I'll keep them really slow (6-8 min/km pace) but with longer tempo type repeats at MP like I'll be doing for marathon training I just drop back to "easy" pace which doesn't give me as fast of a recovery but helps with the slow build up of fatigue that we're going for.  MP also doesn't have me gasping for breath with legs that feel like jelly so doesn't require the same sort of recovery.

                       

                      zebano - Sorry if I missed it elsewhere and I can't see it on the front page, what is the race you have coming up?  Your training has been great, this could be a big one!

                       

                       

                      The house woes sound awful. Good for you for asking 2 months in advance about P.O.A. but shame they ignored it.

                       

                      You and I are completely opposite on recoveries. I love my standing rest and hate jogging. Daniels does talk about it a bit and even mentions your point about how it's harder to get going if you stand around but you get more recovery if you stand.

                       

                      I'm racing Clear Lake Olympic Triathlon. It's my first Olympic distance tri (1500m swim, 40k bike, 10k run) and if you want to see my wild ass guesses about pacing, it's in the marathon thread but they're really just that. The goal is to race hard and leave it on the course but also to not overdo the swim and biking portion as that leaves you with a epically miserable run. Being 100% honest, my bike training has not been up to snuff so I'm going to be leaving some time on the course as I plan to play that conservatively but it's also further than I've ever bike raced so I have my fingers crossed that I can guess an appropriate effort.

                      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                      CommanderKeen


                      Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                        Piwi - I'm actually quite surprised that having a professional NBA team has gone so well here. I was quite certain that after an initial 5 years or so of not being anywhere near a championship that locals would largely lose interest.
                        Frankly, I'd rather have an MLS football/soccer team. That would be much more fun.


                        Flavio - Work travel is quite new to me, and I'm not entirely hating it. Going for a few days a couple times per year is one thing, if I were doing this every month or so that would be quite a different story, I'm sure.


                        Watson - I'm glad physio has gone well and you're cleared to run more. Here's to continued progress!


                        What's with the parts of the world that don't use Freedom Units requiring so much just to run a race? I'm legitimately curious as to the rationale for this.

                        5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                         

                        Upcoming Races:

                         

                        Riverside 5000 - 8/13

                        Wurst Race Half - 10/8

                        CIM - 12/4

                        JamesD


                        JamesD


                          What's with the parts of the world that don't use Freedom Units requiring so much just to run a race? I'm legitimately curious as to the rationale for this.

                           

                          I wonder if there are any studies on whether medical exam requirements lead to (or at least are correlated with) fewer deaths or other health problems during races.

                          Post-1987 PRs:  Half 1:30:14 (2019); 10K 39:35 (2019); 5K 19:12 (2017); Mile 5:37.3 (2020)

                          2022 Goals: Get/stay healthy; run consistently; Half<1:30; PR or 80% age-grade at one distance

                          Fredford66


                          Running Musician

                            James - I would think medical exams might reduce race fatalities, but to what extent, I don't know.  There's the risk that doctors would adopt a CYA attitude and ban too many people.  An exam to join a club doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Three months after an exam, your health status may have changed, so if tests are require to be in a club (and thus to race), then they should be testing people regularly and frequently.  Otherwise, it's either just for show or a deliberate hurdle put in place to discourage some people from trying.

                             

                            Keen - I agree with you - why make it so hard to run?  Isn't it better to encourage people to try so they have a goal to get healthier?

                             

                            Zebano - On the standing/moving rest, I think part of it is what the workout itself is trying to achieve.  Best of luck at your triathlon!

                             

                            Steve - Many of the halves here in NJ are on the shore, where the wind is always a wild card.  I hope it's not too bad for your race.

                             

                            Watson - Good to hear you can run more now.

                             

                            Piwi - Is your Corolla a stick or an automatic?  The first car I ever owned was a used Corolla SR5 and it had one of the best manual transmissions I ever drove - the shift lever would just snap into place.

                             

                            Mark - Are you actively training for a race now, or more aiming to keep fit until you start targeting a specific event?

                             

                            My sister seems to be on the mend - thanks to all who expressed concern and good wishes.  Hopefully, there'll be no long Covid, like her son had (but he was infected before there were vaccines).

                             

                            I have a 5k race on Sunday that my 15-year-old is also running.  It's no longer a question of whether he'll beat me, but a matter of by how much.  The warmer temperature will likely widen the gap as the heat affects me much more than it does him.  The forecast is saying 67º (19C), but it will likely be sunny, which will make it feel warmer.  For now, I'll be curious to see whether I can go sub-24 in that weather as my previous fast (for me) 5k's have all be in temperatures of  55º (13C) or colder.  (I once had a PR set in 15º (-9C)).

                            5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 39:24 (11/21); 10k 50:32 (10/21); Half 1:50:46 (4/22)

                            Upcoming race(s): Grete's Great Gallop 10k, 8/27
                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                              James - I would think medical exams might reduce race fatalities, but to what extent, I don't know.  There's the risk that doctors would adopt a CYA attitude and ban too many people.  An exam to join a club doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Three months after an exam, your health status may have changed, so if tests are require to be in a club (and thus to race), then they should be testing people regularly and frequently.  Otherwise, it's either just for show or a deliberate hurdle put in place to discourage some people from trying

                               

                              I agree with this.  We all know of doctors who think running is a bad idea, and marathons are the worse thing you can do to your body.  I could see some people getting barred from running races as a result.  I suspect that my previous primary care doctor would NOT have been willing to approve my running races.  Not because I had specific health concerns that would stop me from running, but because she thought distance running was quite destructive to the body.

                               

                              I don't know anything about medical malpractice liability in Europe or New Zealand, but I'm guessing it's not the issue there that it is in the US.  So perhaps doctors in those areas are a bit more relaxed about this sort of thing, and more willing to sign off.

                               

                              Additionally, what kind of doctor needs to sign off?  And how long does the approval last?   In the US, it can be quite hard just to get in to see a doctor.

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              flavio1980


                              Intl. correspondent

                                Zeb - Have a great race!

                                 

                                Keen/James/Fred/DW - It’s just bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy. I suppose in theory they would like to catch people with rare heart diseases who are at risk if running hard, but it's quite silly, probably some lobby from doctors or clinics.

                                And do note in Portugal that’s only for track races. In Italy and France it’s for all races.

                                 

                                Fred - Lately I only pay attention if somebody was hospitalized with covid. Catching it is literally as common or even more common than catching a cold these days. Best wishes that your sister has a quick recovery, sometimes covid has a long tail.

                                 

                                Keen - Agreed, work travel is nice 2 or 3 times per year, more than that can be brutal on you and your family.

                                PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                                Up next: Some 5k race in September

                                Tool to generate Strava weekly