The Waltons aka Advanced Half Marathon Training Thread - 2022 edition (Read 422 times)

ccoakley


    Zebano, I thought you were saying that lack of strength or running too fast were the issue?

     

    Yes, I was able to walk a bit around the neighborhood yesterday and I'll probably try to go a block or two farther today.  Still have no desire/motivation/need to run yet.  I'm just going to keep adding things gradually and listening to my body.  My RHR has returned to normal.  It's times like this that I'm really glad I wear my garmin 24/7 and know exactly what's normal for me and what's not.

    5k 24:53 (2020) |10k 52:24 (2021) |HM 1:57:14 (2019) |FM 4:24 (2007) |50k 5:57 (2022)

     

     

    zebano


      Zebano, I thought you were saying that lack of strength or running too fast were the issue?

       

      Yes, I was able to walk a bit around the neighborhood yesterday and I'll probably try to go a block or two farther today.  Still have no desire/motivation/need to run yet.  I'm just going to keep adding things gradually and listening to my body.  My RHR has returned to normal.  It's times like this that I'm really glad I wear my garmin 24/7 and know exactly what's normal for me and what's not.

       

      Well to try and wiggle out of some of the egg on my face, I missed the part where Flavio referenced cramps and his words "jelly legs" just stuck in my head. Personally strength training has helped most with running hills well (uphills in particular) and having more power available in the really short races. I also believe that it helps keep me healthy and injury free which is the real reason why I do it. I usually think anything related to exhausting / hitting the wall is usually undertraining in a marathon unless you really mess up the fueling. Cramps are a different story and I can buy that strength training helps with that.

       

      Glad you're moving forward and doing so sensibly.

      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

        I haven't run a marathon since 2014 and I only ran 2 so hardly an expert but I hold the opinion that cramping is mainly from pushing a muscle beyond what it is used to.

        I've done bits of strength training on my legs but not much over the years. I also haven't run hills hardly at all in ages....and I feel good right now.

         

        Zeb I did watch some highlights of that sub7/8 but didn't appreciate what those numbers meant.

        I like the build of Kristian. Makes us mortals believe we don't have to be gazelle like to run fast.

         

        Flavio congrats that was a great workout.

        I saw this one on YouTube yesterday.

        1k at 1500 pace

        5 min walk recovery

        Repeat 3 times.

         

        That should kill you too 

        50+ PBs -  

        5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

        10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

        Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

        " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

        Somewhere in between is about right "      

         

        SteveChCh


        Hot Weather Complainer

          I definitely think there's a fueling component to cramping - in January when my gels all leaked during a 20 mile-ish run, similar to previous weeks, I got cramp at around the 30km mark which hadn't happened before.

           

          zebano - No, Wellington isn't a PR attempt for a few reasons.  It's timed so that if I did go for it, and took the 2 weeks of recovery I'd be down to 12 weeks until Melbourne.  My coach wants a 16 week build up.  Also, Wellington is so unreliable when it comes to weather that a PR may be impossible before I even start.  My entry is rolled over from last year which is the main reason I'm going - and to break up the training with something a bit different.  The way I adjusted my year when the Christchurch Marathon was cancelled meant that I had the PR attempt at Southern Lakes instead.

          Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

          Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

          Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

          JamesD


          JamesD

            Zebano/Piwi I read this in Amby Burfoot's newsletter and thought you guys would like it /feel vinidicated 

             

             

            Caitlin - How are you getting Amby Burfoot's newsletter?   I used to see what looked like the same thing on Podium Runner, but it disappeared when Outside absorbed PR earlier this year.  Glad you're gradually getting better.

            Post-1987 PRs:  Half 1:30:14 (2019); 10K 39:35 (2019); 5K 19:12 (2017); Mile 5:37.3 (2020)

            '22 Goals: health; consistency; Half<1:30; a PR or AG 80% (done, 82.16% AG 19:19 5K Oct. 1)

            ccoakley


               

              Caitlin - How are you getting Amby Burfoot's newsletter?   I used to see what looked like the same thing on Podium Runner, but it disappeared when Outside absorbed PR earlier this year.  Glad you're gradually getting better.

              It just started showing up in my email a couple weeks ago.  I think I signed up forever ago and 2 platforms ago.  Sounded like his latest distribution method fell through so he reverted back to email.

              5k 24:53 (2020) |10k 52:24 (2021) |HM 1:57:14 (2019) |FM 4:24 (2007) |50k 5:57 (2022)

               

               

              Marky_Mark_17


                I definitely think there's a fueling component to cramping - in January when my gels all leaked during a 20 mile-ish run, similar to previous weeks, I got cramp at around the 30km mark which hadn't happened before.

                 

                 

                I've definitely run out of gas in races but have never experienced cramping, strangely.  Maybe I just got my fuelling mostly right, I guess.  Sometimes I get some tightness towards the end of longer runs but that's about it.

                 

                Weirdly the only time I normally get cramp is either in my calf or the arch of my foot in the middle of the night in summer.

                3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                * Net downhill course

                Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"


                On the roads again...

                   

                  Caitlin - How are you getting Amby Burfoot's newsletter? 

                   

                  Sign up: https://www.runlongrunhealthy.com/

                  Neil

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson

                  zebano


                    Thanks Longboat,

                     

                    This immediately pointed me to trailrunnermag and an article by my favorite Author Davidroche!!

                     

                    I love the conclusion even though I personally love my speedwork.

                     

                    I’ve written over and over again that “speed wins.” But I think there’s a strong argument that the aerobic ability from easy running actually is speed. Often, athletes will run super fast, and we’ll look to their most intense workouts for a justification. Maybe we should actually be looking at their easy runs, stacked back over years.

                    1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                    JamesD


                    JamesD

                      Thanks, Longboat & Caitlin.  Now that I think about it, I used to get this newsletter or something like it when he was writing for Podium Runner, but it stopped when PR stopped.

                      Post-1987 PRs:  Half 1:30:14 (2019); 10K 39:35 (2019); 5K 19:12 (2017); Mile 5:37.3 (2020)

                      '22 Goals: health; consistency; Half<1:30; a PR or AG 80% (done, 82.16% AG 19:19 5K Oct. 1)

                      flavio1980


                      Intl. correspondent

                        Zeb - My intuition is that cramping in my case is the result of pushing the muscles way beyond their limit. A lack of very long

                        Some people are freakishly strong (Mark) other people have fantastic genetics so they don’t get cramps.

                        I wonder if the amount of slow twitch/fast twitch has an impact, I suppose if you have more slow twitch you’re less likely? Dunno.

                        Fact is I have had cramps in every single marathon and 50k, not the simple cramps either, is the one of muscular failure, with damage that takes weeks to heal.

                        Even the 50k where I averaged 65 miles per week with a peak of 75 miles per week I still got cramps. Even when I tried to easy run a marathon at 8 minute mile pace, I still got cramps.

                        This last marathon was the one where I got further, reaching 37km at a decent pace, then got cramps 😂

                         

                        Caitlin - That’s better news. It’s impressive now it hit you like a freight train and so quickly, but hopefully the recovery will be as quick.

                         

                        Piwi - that’s an interesting workout, it’s like the one I did but without the 5x100 repeats.

                        PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                        Up next: 10K Family race

                        Tool to generate Strava weekly

                        Fredford66


                        Running Musician

                          Zebano - Interesting quote equating aerobic ability with speed.  I think there's something to be said for that in longer races.  I'm sorry to hear about your cramping issues.  Can't say I've ever dealt with that, but then I'm not running as fast as you and perhaps not as hard.

                           

                          Piwi - That does look like a tough workout indeed.  Fortunately, I have no idea what my 1500 pace is, so there's no point in me trying.  Nice week.

                           

                          Ccoakley - Thanks for the bit about sales & electrolytes.  I found they don't make a difference for me (per the science).  I've also found that people who are convinced that electrolyte supplements are necessary cannot be convinced otherwise.

                           

                          Flavio - That's quite a workout too.  Like you, I prefer morning races, but to participate in local, town-sponsored events I often have to race in the evening.  It is what it is and I go for the fun.  Nice job on breaking 50km.

                           

                          Steve - On the issue of winds, and maybe this is a good question for all, if you have a strong tailwind that will later be a headwind, do you use it to go faster, thus banking time for when it's a headwind, or do you use it to save some effort and keep that strength for running into the wind later?  Nice buildup week.

                           

                          Watson - Sorry to hear about your cat.  Interesting to see how much distance you cover while reffing matches.

                           

                          Darkwave - I hope the hormone issues settle down and let you get back to your usual running.  My wife's menopause was quite and up-and-down experience, including getting her period after 10 months without, which I'm told re-sets the clock somehow.

                           

                          Hash - Did you run doubles and triples last week, or were those workouts on the 4th and 5th all part of the same outing?

                           

                          Mark - Nice week of work.  I agree on the commute taking up too much time.  At least I'm on a train so I can catch up on my reading, as opposed to those who have to drive.

                           

                          James - Sorry to hear about the hamstring issues.  I hope you can figure out what the trigger is.

                           

                          I finished up my scuba lessons on Thursday and Friday last week, then went again on Sunday, tagging along with another class at the instructor's invitation.  In between, I played with a community band in an outdoor park concert.  Despite all that, I got just over 40 miles for the week, which is only the second time I've done that since February.  The reward for all my efforts was a mild soreness in my right foot and a tender left ankle.  I took Monday off from running and then Tuesday as well.  I'm in the office today (first time in 27 months), so I won't be running today either.  Both minor pains seem to have resolved, so I think I'll be fine to resume running on Thursday, which happens to be the first official day of my fall half marathon training.

                          5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

                          Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #2 Trail 5k, 12/18; Hangover 5k, 1/1/23
                          zebano


                            Zeb - My intuition is that cramping in my case is the result of pushing the muscles way beyond their limit. A lack of very long

                            Some people are freakishly strong (Mark) other people have fantastic genetics so they don’t get cramps.

                            I wonder if the amount of slow twitch/fast twitch has an impact, I suppose if you have more slow twitch you’re less likely? Dunno.

                            Fact is I have had cramps in every single marathon and 50k, not the simple cramps either, is the one of muscular failure, with damage that takes weeks to heal.

                            Even the 50k where I averaged 65 miles per week with a peak of 75 miles per week I still got cramps. Even when I tried to easy run a marathon at 8 minute mile pace, I still got cramps.

                            This last marathon was the one where I got further, reaching 37km at a decent pace, then got cramps 😂

                             

                             

                            Flavio - I do wonder if you're onto something with the fiber type. I too have cramped in every marathon and the only long distance race I didn't was a 9 hour / 42 mile ultra where I was way behind on my nutrition and spent 20 minutes sitting and 2 more hours slowly progressing from walk to walk / run to run/walk and finally to running again. In my most recent marathon I actually got cramps under my rib cage which were far far worse than my previous calf and hamstring cramps.

                            1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                            SteveChCh


                            Hot Weather Complainer

                              Now I'm getting nervous about cramping...I guess all I can do is build strength as much as possible and work on my nutrition strategy.  This is why I'll be conservative even if I'm still feeling good - all it will take is a decent cramp in the last few kms to derail the whole race.  My worst cramps up until now have always been post-race or long run.

                               

                              Fred - In my recent Selwyn half I tried to bank some time with the tailwind, but I feel like I lost more than I gained.  In Wellington it's a completely different ball game - the wind can be so strong that with a tailwind it's really hard to keep any sort of form and you can be forced into almost a sprint.  Then the headwind can be so severe that even when working as hard as possible you can effectively be going walking speed.  It's possible not to have weather like that in Wellington but it is very common - it was almost worst case scenario on the day of my cancelled marathon last year so it may have worked out for the best.

                               

                              On that note, it's 10 days until Wellington, and while it's not a race for me, I'll still obsess over the weather because I'd obviously prefer more Melbourne like weather which can be windy especially down by Port Phillip Bay, but is usually quite reliable.  The current, probably irrelevant, forecast for that weekend is showers and southeasterlies which is probably the best wind direction.

                              Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                              Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                              Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

                              Fredford66


                              Running Musician

                                 

                                 

                                On that note, it's 10 days until Wellington, and while it's not a race for me, I'll still obsess over the weather because I'd obviously prefer more Melbourne like weather which can be windy especially down by Port Phillip Bay, but is usually quite reliable.  The current, probably irrelevant, forecast for that weekend is showers and southeasterlies which is probably the best wind direction.

                                 

                                I'd take rain if it meant good wind conditions - as long as it's not too cold.

                                5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

                                Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #2 Trail 5k, 12/18; Hangover 5k, 1/1/23