The Waltons aka Advanced Half Marathon Training Thread - 2022 edition (Read 443 times)

Fredford66


Running Musician

     

     

    They're a little obscenely cheery (even more so if you listen at 125% speed like I do) but episode 126 of Some Work All Play has a nice summary of the Norweigan model where they make some interesting claims about long term sustainable improvement only being possible if you don't overcook your workouts. I'm going to listen to it again and try and summarize their suggestions but for non-gifted amatuers like us it's basically run a bunch, run a long run, do a little bit of neuromuscular work, short doubles are good (even 10 min  crosstraining will have a hormonal response that's benefical) do some light workouts but don't overcook them.

     

     

     

    Very interesting, and I think it may be applicable to what's worked for me.  I've been careful (some might say overly cautious) about not setting goals that I see as too ambitious.  I've been willing to accept small improvement each training cycle (spring and fall) rather than going for bigger improvements.  There are people who wanted me to shoot for sub-1:50 three or four years ago, but I approached that target more slowly and eventually I got there and perhaps not overcooking my workouts played a role in that.

     

    Yes, Hansons has worked for me for halves.  Two workouts per week (one at race pace, one faster), a long run every other week, and the rest at easy effort, building up the mileage.  Some find it boring.  I find the simple workouts easy to execute.

    5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

    Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #5 Trail 10k, 2/4; E. Murray Todd Half, 3/12
    CommanderKeen


    Cobra Commander Keen

      Fred - Great RR, thanks.


      MJ - Thoughts on getting a live coach?
      JMac and I are probably the biggest Daniels fans here, but those workouts are tough.
      I did a Pfitz cycle once, though I can't recall much about it at this point.
      I spent a good amount of time doing Tinman/Tom Schwartz-style CV (critical velocity) runs and really enjoyed it.
      RP and Fred have had great success with Hansons.

      5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

       

      Upcoming Races:

       

      Heartland 50 - May 6

      zebano


        Ok I just re-listened to much of the podcast. I think everyone could benefit from listening from  1h10m in until ~1h 15m as it's a great little summary which I've transcribed here.

         

        Summary of Norweigan Training

        • Keep easy days easy
        • develop speed but don't overly train anaerobic processes
        • controlled intervals are often more effective for aerobic development and you shouldn't be racing workouts

         

        Their Suggestions For non-pros:

        • Aerobic volume 80+% of the time
          • half of that in zone 1 (in a 5 zone model)
          • half of that you can work up to steady (i.e. z2) or push a little on hills
        •  make sure you're layering that VO2 power stimulus thinking about running economy and running development ... don't forget your shorter intensity days, your strides that fun neuromuscular output.
          • get close to max output 2x / week
        •  emphasis on critical velocity or lactate threshold but for most of us... just dial it back and make it sustainable.
        •  before big events do one or two big workouts.
        •  FUEL yourself for performance!

         

         

        I personally am a little confused by their inclusion of the words vo2 with power stimulus as those are different in my book (I'm heavily JD influenced) but this is a fairly concise set of training suggestions, the most notable one being how much Z1 running they suggest. It's worth knowing that while they do coach road runners, their primary clients are ultra, trail and obstacle runners though I'm not convinced that changes the training at all.

         

         

         

         

         

        --------------------------

         

        Keen I didn't know you did a bunch of CV work. I've really enjoyed those when I've done them. Any big takeaways? Did you always finish with strides or 200s as he suggests?

        1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

        CommanderKeen


        Cobra Commander Keen

          Zebano - Nice write up, though I'll likely give the podcast a listen as well.


          It looks like I decently fall in line with their recommendations, as you posted. Here's my YTD HR zone distribution by week:

           

          I really liked the CV intervals, and usually did the 200s afterwards. It was kind of a weird mix of "I know I'm working hard" during the workouts and "I could have done a lot more of that" afterwards. Which is the point, really. Stress the system, but not so much that you ever risk burnout or injury and thus having to sit out some time. Slower, more gradual improvement over a longer period of time is the name of the game.

          5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

           

          Upcoming Races:

           

          Heartland 50 - May 6

          zebano


            Keen that's an awesome graph. Is that Runalyze? TrainingPeaks? Something else?

            1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

            CommanderKeen


            Cobra Commander Keen

              Runalyze. I found this site at least a decade ago and it took SO long for them to translate to English from German, but I was quite happy when they finally did.

               

              That chart is under Tools>Histogram.

              5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

               

              Upcoming Races:

               

              Heartland 50 - May 6

                Ok I just re-listened to much of the podcast. I think everyone could benefit from listening from  1h10m in until ~1h 15m as it's a great little summary which I've transcribed here. 

                 

                 

                 Zeb - Legend work on the transcribing! I tried listening (from the start), but lasted about 30secs before vomiting. I think you severly understated how cheery they actually are...

                 

                James - Yeah, that's the one. I find them hilarious, and the 'Half Perish' one hard out made me laugh when I first read it. "That was only a half perish" 

                 

                Fred - Enjoyably detailed RR, as usual! I also enjoy watching the YouTube clips you post of your races.

                 

                MJ - You've started an interesting discussion on training plans! I'm a +1 for this wisdom by Zeb - "I'm a big fan of doing the basics: long run, miles, strides, tempo runs and letting the chips fall where they will".

                 

                CK - Love that HR zone graph

                 

                Caitlin - Tough call on the deferral, but sounds like it was the right choice.

                 

                Mark - The Nelson HM website tells me that your race is 2d 23hrs away. Good luck!

                50+ age-group PBs:  Half Perish 1:28:11 (Sept '22 Off-Road Half) - 10km 37:52 (2022 Local Road Champs); - Track 5km 18:49 (Aug '22); Track Mile 5:32 (2021)

                2023 Goals: Perish Run BQ (3:25) Half Perish Sub 1:25 - Road/Track 10km Sub 37:00 - 5km Sub 18:00

                2022 Races: That's it. Merry Xmas to one and all!

                 

                Marky_Mark_17


                   Mark - The Nelson HM website tells me that your race is 2d 23hrs away. Good luck!

                   

                  Thanks! Weather forecast is looking pretty good, but main thing is just going out to have some fun and run a good race!

                  3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                  10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                  * Net downhill course

                  Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                  Up next: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb

                  "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                  SteveChCh


                  Hot Weather Complainer

                    Good luck for Sunday Mark.  I have a feeling this will be a really good race for you.

                    5km: 18:53 12/22 │ 10km: 40:49 2/22 │ HM: 1:27:32* 5/22 │ M: 3:35:02 10/22

                    *Net Downhill.  Flat course PR:  1:29:25 6/16

                    Upcoming Races:

                    Motorway Half Marathon February 26, 2023, City to Surf 12km March 19, 2023, Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023

                    zebano


                       

                       Zeb - Legend work on the transcribing! I tried listening (from the start), but lasted about 30secs before vomiting. I think you severly understated how cheery they actually are...

                       

                      yeah I skip the first 20 minutes of every episode where they just talk about random stuff. Then I set it to 125% speed

                       

                       

                      Mark how's the weather looking? All the NY Marathon runners are freaking out around here

                      1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                      Fredford66


                      Running Musician

                        yeah I skip the first 20 minutes of every episode where they just talk about random stuff. Then I set it to 125% speed

                         

                         

                        Mark how's the weather looking? All the NY Marathon runners are freaking out around here

                         

                        Mark - good luck.

                         

                        Zebano - Yes, I'll be tracking at least three people and none are happy about the forecast, starting at 65º and going up to 72º (18C - 22C).  The only saving grace may be a good chance of cloud cover to keep the sun from making it feel even warmer (though I'm sure they're not happy about the 20% chance of rain all day).  Thanks for the summary of the podcast.

                         

                        Hash, Keen - Thanks on the RR.

                        5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

                        Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #5 Trail 10k, 2/4; E. Murray Todd Half, 3/12
                        Marky_Mark_17


                          yeah I skip the first 20 minutes of every episode where they just talk about random stuff. Then I set it to 125% speed

                           

                           

                          Mark how's the weather looking? All the NY Marathon runners are freaking out around here

                           

                          Pretty good. 12C / low to mid 50’s at the start with clear skies and no wind. But, it will feel warmer than that as sunrise is just after 6am at the moment. Still, as good as you could probably get at this time of year.

                          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                          * Net downhill course

                          Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                          Up next: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          need2tri


                             

                            Pretty good. 12C / low to mid 50’s at the start with clear skies and no wind. But, it will feel warmer than that as sunrise is just after 6am at the moment. Still, as good as you could probably get at this time of year.

                             

                            Good luck Mark!

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                              Good luck! (just chiming in).

                               

                              BTW, I'm in Covid Jail now - tested positive this evening.  I feel like I made it to nearly the last round of Duck Duck Goose before tapping out.

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              watsonc123


                                Mark - good luck for Nelson.  Looking at the forecast, that's really good for November.

                                 

                                Darkwave - at least it didn't happen during race week!  Hopefully you're vaccinated too, as that will help, so hopefully it's mild and short.

                                PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

                                 

                                40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)