The Waltons aka Advanced Half Marathon Training Thread - 2022 edition (Read 443 times)

zebano


     

    When Garmin thinks I need more low aerobic it gives me easy runs like 48 min @ 11:25 (which the preciseness of the minutes and pace always crack me up), high aerobic is something like 3 x 8 min @ 9:15 w/ 3 min @ 13:25 recovery and anaerobic is like 10 x 10 sec @ 5:55 w/ 3 min recovery.

     

    Interesting. It's actually sprint, LT and general aerobic to mix some terminologies. There's nothing in there for VO2max.

    1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

       

      Hash  Nice week. Am I crazy? I thought you were training for a marathon, was this a cutback week?

       

       

      Zeb - Well, you are correct in that I have decided to run a Perish run! The CHCH (Christchurch) marathon in April.

       

      However, as soon as my body heard my decision, it got a bit grumpy. So I'm taking it easy for a bit (not that my build-up weeks will be much more than 75k/46mi per week anyway).

      50+ age-group PBs:  Half Perish 1:28:11 (Sept '22 Off-Road Half) - 10km 37:52 (2022 Local Road Champs); - Track 5km 18:49 (Aug '22); Track Mile 5:32 (2021)

      2023 Goals: Perish Run BQ (3:25) Half Perish Sub 1:25 - Road/Track 10km Sub 37:00 - 5km Sub 18:00

      2022 Races: That's it. Merry Xmas to one and all!

       

      Fredford66


      Running Musician

        Nutrition -I've been using gels for my half marathons ever since I started running them.  I've read that for anything under 2 hours people don't necessarily need to fuel, but I'm not ready to take the plunge yet.  I'm not sure what I'll do for the marathon next year - maybe just pack more gels.

         

        Zebano - Interesting that doubles helped your 5k time.  I may have to consider that as I focus on shorter races during the next couple of months.  Still, it's a big change in my daily routine and time with family, so it likely won't happen.  I also don't like the mobile DJs who see nothing wrong with making everyone listen to their music.  I was once plagued by a guy in a 10k race who had "Eye of the Tiger" on a loop.  Glad you're feeling strong.

         

        Mark - Good luck with your year-end events.  How long does it take you to recover from a fast half like you just ran?

         

        Ccoakley - Yes, it's nice to have this window of opportunity to run with my son.  Nice week of running and I think you're right to be doing mostly easy runs while you bring your mileage back up.

         

        Keen - Yes, I'd better do more speed work with my 5M and 5k races coming up, though I'm not sure I'm ready for the type of workouts you outlined.  Another big week for you - well done.  On the gels, the ones I take recommend every 45 minutes; at your pace, every 4 - 4½ miles is more frequent than that, so maybe that contributed?  Or is that your usual rate of intake and something was just off that one day?

         

        Watson - I watched the whole marathon, including the coverage before and after the national broadcast that likely was only shown locally.  Desi Linden when out early, but that didn't last.  I know several people who ran it, by which I mean they started out running but were mixing in walking by the time they got to Manhattan (about 15 miles in), or sooner.  I ran early that morning and knew it would not be a good day for a marathon.

         

        James - How are things looking for your half?  Feeling ready?

         

        DW - I hope you're able to get back on plan soon.

         

        Hash - another nice week for you.  I seem to have missed the Perish run topic.  Is that something particular to your neck of the woods?

         

        I'm moving out of recovery mode and back into training, which started with the repeats I ran with my son over the weekend.  Yesterday I shared a track workout with my RP.  He was doing the last of the Hansons strength workouts before running the Philadelphia Marathon, going 6 x 1 mile with ¼ mile recoveries.  His target pace is faster than mine and he runs them faster than target.  Given my legs are still recovering a bit, I ran 4 of the 6 with him, running easy while he ran his 3rd and 5th miles.  His faster pace is probably good training for me for my upcoming 5-miler.

         

        I used my 5k, 10k, and half marathon results from this year and plugged various combinations into the Riegel model and I got 5 mile projected times of 39:18. 39:17, and 39:19.  I find it interesting that the three predictions are all so close to each other.  I didn't use my 4-mile result as I think that is still a bit soft and it came on a hilly course while the 5-miler will be flat, as were the 10k and the half.  My 5 mile PR is 39:24, so the model says I should be able to shave 5 - 7 seconds off that on a good day.  We shall see (last year I took 9 seconds off my PR).  It will be my 9th running of that race, so at least I'll be quite familiar with the course.

        5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

        Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #5 Trail 10k, 2/4; E. Murray Todd Half, 3/12
        CommanderKeen


        Cobra Commander Keen

          Fred - I also usually take a gel during a HM, but more from a "central governor" theory angle than physiological need. I figure I'll take two during my HM this weekend just as a test.
          Every 4.5-5 miles / 30-35 minutes is what I have done before. If I have issues with that this weekend I'll likely spread it out a bit more. Or panic and try different gels. Or different gels and spread them out, or, or, or..... (insert panic here)

           

          Those workouts are something you build up to. For the Ronnestad workout I usually only get partway through the second set the first time or two, then partway through the third. And it's really reps 10-13 on the second set that are the hardest. After that you ge some good recovery to start the third set and by the time those get hard it's "all downhill from here/just hang on a bit longer" mode until it's all over.

          5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

           

          Upcoming Races:

           

          Heartland 50 - May 6

          JamesD


          JamesD

             

            James - How are things looking for your half?  Feeling ready?

             

             

             

             

            Not really feeling ready - I'm undertrained compared to previous halfs (shorter long runs, shorter tempo runs, no VO2 work, though a few more miles overall), and in the last few days I've started to get aches in places I never get them, like my right shin, my left hip, and my back in the last few days.  Weather also will be too cold for me.  Still looking forward to it, though, and I'm hoping it's a good omen that my 5K times this year have all been better than I expected.

             

            Also, I still haven't decided which half I'll run, but I'm now leaning towards the sketchy one.  The organizers of the sketchy one posted their full course yesterday, and if they're at all sensible, I'm sure I can guess what their half course will be - starting with the marathoners and staying with them for the first 8 or so miles before turning around while the marathoners continue to head away.  It's very similar to the course of our competitive Red Nose half in January (which I've never run because January), and that has only about 250 feet of elevation gain, 100 feet less than the other half.  The organizers still don't seem very competent - they just posted a Facebook request for volunteers yesterday - but the people who have signed up include several with times reasonably close to what I might run, while there's a real chance that I would be alone after two miles of the other race.  I might change my mind again, though.

             

            Also, I'm not Hash, but here's the comic strip that Perish refers to:  https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=strange+planet+comic+strip&fr=yhs-ima-remarklist&type=q3020_A0M0B_set_bsf_Tq&hspart=ima&hsimp=yhs-remarklist&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Ff9%2F5c%2Fea%2Ff95cea5aa46c2077aee0399a9e1ced93.png#id=16&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fb1%2F3e%2F27%2Fb13e272ad85a56e37a4f07a6e48c2796.jpg&action=click

            Post-1987 PRs:  Half 1:30:14 (2019); 10K 39:35 (2019); 5K 19:12 (2017); Mile 5:37.3 (2020)

            '23 Goals: health; consistency; age-graded PRs; half < 1:30

            Marky_Mark_17


              Fred - I also usually take a gel during a HM, but more from a "central governor" theory angle than physiological need. I figure I'll take two during my HM this weekend just as a test.
              Every 4.5-5 miles / 30-35 minutes is what I have done before. If I have issues with that this weekend I'll likely spread it out a bit more. Or panic and try different gels. Or different gels and spread them out, or, or, or..... (insert panic here)

               

              Those workouts are something you build up to. For the Ronnestad workout I usually only get partway through the second set the first time or two, then partway through the third. And it's really reps 10-13 on the second set that are the hardest. After that you ge some good recovery to start the third set and by the time those get hard it's "all downhill from here/just hang on a bit longer" mode until it's all over.

               

              I always take two in a half.  Any workout over an hour, you typically need some fuel, and more so if it's a race.  There is some conventional wisdom around that you don't need it for a half but the one time I didn't take any was the one time I kinda ran out of gas a little.

               

              The organizers still don't seem very competent - they just posted a Facebook request for volunteers yesterday - but the people who have signed up include several with times reasonably close to what I might run, while there's a real chance that I would be alone after two miles of the other race.  I might change my mind again, though. 

               

              It always surprises me how variable the standard of marshalling is.  I have run big races where the lack of marshalling created a real risk of course errors... and yet the Nelson HM last weekend (only a few hundred entrants) was probably the best marshalled I've ever seen outside of the REALLY big races like Auckland.

              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

              * Net downhill course

              Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

              Up next: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb

              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

              Fredford66


              Running Musician

                Keen - Thanks for the insight on the workout.  I think I understand what you mean about the gels and central governance.

                 

                Mark - Glad to hear you take gels in a half too, despite what "they" say about not needing them.

                 

                James - Good luck with your half.  The race I've been watching finally posted their course - it's not bad other than a sharp turnaround at the end of a narrow pier into the ocean.  What's funny is they posted it on MapMyRun and the satellite view shows portions of the course out in the ocean since the images were taken after a bad storm.  The Google satellite view shows the course running on a rebuilt boardwalk.  Too late for me, though, as I have other commitments for that weekend now.

                 

                I'm trying to get my son to train a bit for the 1-mile run he's doing later this month.  I know he wants to improve on his previous time, but he's 16 and not too active in the mornings when I run.

                5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

                Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #5 Trail 10k, 2/4; E. Murray Todd Half, 3/12
                zebano


                  FWIW I've started taking a gel or two during long runs and it really seems to help not just with energy during the run but post-run I don't feel depleted and like I need to spend half the day on the couch.

                  1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                  Marky_Mark_17


                    Mark - Glad to hear you take gels in a half too, despite what "they" say about not needing them.

                     

                    I think you'll find "they" also suggest you should aim for 2 hour long runs without any sort of fuel or water etc.  That sort of depletion mindset can often do more harm than good.

                     

                    Plenty of solid evidence to demonstrate that any sort of effort over about 75 minutes will generally need some fuel (and you need to take it before the 75 minute mark).  Obviously if you are working at race effort, there is a good chance you will need the fuel sooner.

                     

                    There is no downside to taking a gel or two during a half, unless you have a major risk of GI issues, and quite a lot of upside from the extra carbs and not hitting a depleted state.

                    3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                    10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                    * Net downhill course

                    Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                    Up next: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb

                    "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                    Fredford66


                    Running Musician

                       

                      I think you'll find "they" also suggest you should aim for 2 hour long runs without any sort of fuel or water etc.  That sort of depletion mindset can often do more harm than good.

                       

                      Plenty of solid evidence to demonstrate that any sort of effort over about 75 minutes will generally need some fuel (and you need to take it before the 75 minute mark).  Obviously if you are working at race effort, there is a good chance you will need the fuel sooner.

                       

                      There is no downside to taking a gel or two during a half, unless you have a major risk of GI issues, and quite a lot of upside from the extra carbs and not hitting a depleted state.

                       

                      Mark - I think I see what you're saying.  Zebano - You're making a similar point.  You're both pointing out that running to depletion/heavy fatigue is counterproductive (to running and/or the rest of our lives).  It's a good point I need to take into account more often.  I've had too many Sunday afternoons go by doing little or nothing after a morning long run that would likely have benefited from some fuel.

                      5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

                      Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #5 Trail 10k, 2/4; E. Murray Todd Half, 3/12
                      Marky_Mark_17


                        Yeah I hadn't really reflected on Zebano's point before. It's an interesting one. I've found my recovery from long runs has been much better in the last 12-18 months.  I don't know whether that's fuelling a bit more, or drinking less/no alcohol, or both.  The only time I feel really lazy on a Sunday now is if the LR also included a big workout section (which is pretty uncommon for me).

                        3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                        10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                        * Net downhill course

                        Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                        Up next: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb

                        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                        JamesD


                        JamesD

                          I've never taken a gel during a half or other race, but for the one next weekend I'm going to take my usual caffeinated (150mg) SIS gel an hour before the start so the caffeine will kick in early, since I start very slowly in cold weather.  150mg is as much caffeine as I've had before, but this time I'll also take another one, with 75 mg, just before the start.  That way the extra caffeine will kick in with 30-40 minutes to go, and I won't have to worry about carrying a gel or trying to open and swallow it while tired.  I'll see how it works.

                          Post-1987 PRs:  Half 1:30:14 (2019); 10K 39:35 (2019); 5K 19:12 (2017); Mile 5:37.3 (2020)

                          '23 Goals: health; consistency; age-graded PRs; half < 1:30

                          JamesD


                          JamesD

                            Surprised at how much of an adjustment it's been to running in the morning rather than the afternoon or midday like I’ve been doing for the last several months.  (I suspect the issue might not be the actual time of day, but running so soon after I wake up, and getting up very early on race day should help with that.)  I started the week a good 30 sec/mile slower than the same effort would get me later in the day, but by the end of the week I seemed to be mostly acclimated.  Now I just have to deal with the temperature, as this morning’s was a near-perfect 60F/16C, albeit with 100% humidity and thick fog.  Temperatures will plunge tonight, and the forecast for race day morning is 33F/1C with wind.  Considering that my last half was too cold at 42/6, I expect to be bundled up in my thickest tights & multiple layers.  At least I’ll have a few days to get somewhat acclimated and try out various clothing combinations.  Still haven’t decided which of the two halfs to run, as a few more people are signing up for the small local one and the organizers of the sketchy one still haven’t posted their half course.  Tomorrow’s run (before Monday’s off day) will give me 42 straight days of either running at least 5 miles or swimming at least 24 minutes.

                             

                            Sun - 7 miles in park AM @ 9:09/mile, very sluggish

                            Mon - 37 minutes swimming 

                            Tues - 6.1 miles in park AM incl. 2.3 @ 7:10/mile

                            Weds - 5.2 very slow treadmill (63 minutes) + 0:40 walk breaks/6 mins

                            Thurs - 6.2 in park AM @ 8:38, very slow first lap then ok

                            Fri - 24 minutes swimming

                            Sat - 5.8 in park AM incl. 2 @ 6:57/mile

                             

                            Total - 30.3 miles

                            YTD Average - 35.4 mpw



                            Post-1987 PRs:  Half 1:30:14 (2019); 10K 39:35 (2019); 5K 19:12 (2017); Mile 5:37.3 (2020)

                            '23 Goals: health; consistency; age-graded PRs; half < 1:30

                            Marky_Mark_17


                              James - can't believe how much the temperatures change in your part of the world!

                               

                              Me - decent week of training with Sunday being my first trip up to the forest in a while.  Figured it was good practice for the trail half I've got coming up in 4 weeks.  Anyways I took a wrong turn on the western side and instead of getting the northern loop I ended up coming along Hansen Rd which is took me up and along a clearfelled ridge.  This was not a bad thing as most of the forest roads are gravel and this was full on trail (rutted, muddy, strewn with bits of tree) with a 10% grade hill to start.  The trail half I'm doing has two hills with a 10% grade and they're both around 2km long (basically opposite sides of the same hill), so it actually made me realise that the best strategy may very well be to just walk the hills, or at least jog them with walk breaks.  Anyways I should be able to get a couple more forest runs in before the race next month.  It was nice being out there actually... harder running but great to be out in nature and I can tell from how my legs feel that it's worked a bunch of muscles I wouldn't normally use on the roads!

                               

                              Weekly for period: From: 07/11/2022 To 13/11/2022

                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in m
                              07/11 That run with the ol’ recovery shuffle 4.46 7.18 00:33:25 07:30 04:39 15
                              08/11 That run where I was out early but the rowers were out earlier 8.30 13.35 00:55:40 06:42 04:10 95
                              09/11 That run where there were a lot of runners out considering it’s the second week after the Auckland Marathon 8.65 13.92 00:55:07 06:22 03:58 40
                              10/11 That run where for the first time in 4 years I actually saw someone using the bike lane in Hobsonville Point 8.94 14.38 01:02:12 06:57 04:20 94
                              12/11 That run where they were setting up for the 24 hour race 7.76 12.48 00:47:12 06:05 03:47 49
                              13/11 That run with the first forest adventure in a while 13.68 22.01 01:39:31 07:16 04:31 519

                              Total distance: 83.31km (51.8 imperial treestumps)

                              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                              * Net downhill course

                              Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                              Up next: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb

                              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                                Fred - It's a private joke to myself. I love the cartoon series it comes from. I can't work out how to post images, so here's the dialogue:

                                 

                                "I will return - I must run to prepare for my imminent Perish run"

                                "What is a Perish run"

                                "The narrative is the first being to run a full perish-length perished soon after completion"

                                "Ok, wow"

                                "I do not want to perish someday having never completed a physical activity known for making someone perish"

                                "I thought you had already completed one?

                                "That was a half Perish"

                                 

                                JamesD - That is some serious change in temperature!

                                 

                                Mark - Are you not temped at all by the 24-hr race...?? Smile

                                 

                                My week: Slow and Steady (Sleady?)

                                Weekly for period: From: 07/11/2022 To 13/11/2022

                                Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                                in m
                                07/11 Just Another Manic Monday 6.54 10.52 00:58:51 09:00 05:36 10
                                07/11 $25 for one year of Track use. Bargain! 3.19 5.13 00:29:27 09:14 05:44 77
                                08/11 Wedding Speech Prep 6.85 11.02 01:09:50 10:12 06:20 338
                                10/11 Cruisin’- with Spokey Dokeys 6.70 10.77 01:15:01 11:12 06:58 370
                                11/11 Snuck a quickie in before the rain 5.61 9.03 00:55:43 09:56 06:10 225
                                12/11 Oh, hey you. Long time no see. 4.61 7.42 00:34:17 07:26 04:37 187
                                12/11 I’m Running Free (but not for long) 6.28 10.11 01:04:43 10:18 06:24 396
                                13/11 Key Pickup for Next Sat’s ‘Event’ 4.04 6.50 00:36:46 09:06 05:39 169
                                13/11 Evening Eleven…almost! 6.31 10.15 00:50:56 08:04 05:01 144

                                Total distance: 80.65km (50 Imperial Tennessee Walkers)

                                50+ age-group PBs:  Half Perish 1:28:11 (Sept '22 Off-Road Half) - 10km 37:52 (2022 Local Road Champs); - Track 5km 18:49 (Aug '22); Track Mile 5:32 (2021)

                                2023 Goals: Perish Run BQ (3:25) Half Perish Sub 1:25 - Road/Track 10km Sub 37:00 - 5km Sub 18:00

                                2022 Races: That's it. Merry Xmas to one and all!