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Question: Training Plan Pacing Adjustments (Read 1064 times)


Tomorrow will be worse

    Sorry if this is a repeat thread - I know I've seen this question asked before, though I haven't ever gotten a clear answer.

     

    When people start a training plan (for marathon, 1/2 marathon, whatever) they start with a given "easy pace" and adjust their pacing based on past race results (where they exist). All training paces are based off of that for the training program, normally 16-20 weeks for most of the standard cookie-cutter plans.

     

    Background: I started training 6 months out from a goal marathon is OK normal-person shape, but far from my current running form. At the time, I was able to run a 5K in 24-25 mins. I'm now 4 months into training, 2 months out from the marathon, and I think my 5K time is 20-21, just based on training feel (I plan to confirm this on my tempo day tomorrow with a not quite all-out 5K). So I'm fitter and faster now than when I started as just a "generally-more-active-than-a-normal-fat-person" (I just noticed what I wrote, and sadly it's true; "normal" is fat), though my training paces are still (largely) based on that state of fitness

     

    So here's my question: What do I do with pacing now? Do I up my training paces for the next 8 weeks before Marathon? My concern is that I built a base rather quickly, and based on the need to run a certain pace, I'm not sure how much faster that base supports. Also I'm not sure 8 weeks is enough time to do a wholesale adjustment in my approach to the race. Also important is that this is my first marathon (actually my first real race...ever), so I'll stay slightly on the conservative side, but I'd rather blow up trying to run well than just plod through to the end. Thoughts?

     

    MTA: I'm not claiming that I'm over prepared for the marathon, I'm not sure that state of fitness exists for me. Just wondering if I should push my paces in the rest of the preparation time I have available to me.

    Scout7


    CPT Curmudgeon

      I wouldn't adjust until after your goal race, because that's what the training is building towards.  Besides, I would hope that your race paces have improved; otherwise, what would be the point of all that training?

       

      Stick with the plan and paces for now, and then after your marathon make the necessary adjustments.

        When people start a training plan (for marathon, 1/2 marathon, whatever) they start with a given "easy pace" and adjust their pacing based on past race results (where they exist). All training paces are based off of that for the training program, normally 16-20 weeks for most of the standard cookie-cutter plans.

         

        I don't know that this is true.

         

        I would suggest to you that most successful runners do not decide on their training paces, they discover them.  In training.

         

        Of course your fitness changes throughout a training build up--this is especially true if you are new to running.  Training paces should be associated with an effort, not a number--especially "easy pace".  I've never decided in advance what my easy pace is--I let the run decide for me.

        Runners run.

          Easy or recovery runs are the only ones I do were I don't have a target pace (range) in mind - I just run as a feel and keep it feeling very comfortable.


          Tomorrow will be worse

            I would suggest to you that most successful runners do not decide on their training paces, they discover them.  In training.

             

            Of course your fitness changes throughout a training build up--this is especially true if you are new to running.  Training paces should be associated with an effort, not a number--especially "easy pace".  I've never decided in advance what my easy pace is--I let the run decide for me.

             

            I can see where this is better, but given the newb factor, running by feel for everything isn't really an option, especially for tempo. I have no problems running easy pace by feel, and I've used a HRM occasionally that confirms I'm around 140-145bpm (which seems to match what the low-HR people suggest) at the pace that FEELS easy.

             

            Running intervals and tempo though, I found I was hitting them too hard so I started using McMillan's calculator to set target pace ranges.

             

            I actually use them more as speed limits than goals.

              How did you find out you were hitting intervals and tempos too hard?

               

              We were all newbs once.  I found that occasionally setting speed limits was helpful but only in order to learn what appropriate effort should feel like.  For my money, learning to to tempos by effort is probably the most valuable training skill a runner can develop.

               

              Having said all of that, at this point you are WAY better off training too slow than too fast, so it's wise to err on the side of caution.  If you've been running for 4-months, are getting close to 50 miles a week for the first time ever in your life, and have a marathon in 2 months, you pretty much just need to stay on the road.  There is only so much training stimulus your body can absorb at one time.

               

              So to answer your original question I would say there is little to nothing to be gained (and a whole lot to be lost) by pushing your training paces in the remaining time you have left to your marathon.

              Runners run.

                I would suggest to you that most successful runners do not decide on their training paces, they discover them.  In training.

                FWIW, I've seen Mikey express this notion several times.  And every time, I've thought, That's easy for you to say, you've been running your whole life.  Then I -- who's been running since mid-2009 -- tried it last fall.  And it turns out, those paces were right under my nose.

                 

                If you have enough desire to have made a plan and enough discipline to get your butt out there ... then apply that same discipline to finding your paces/efforts.  It won't happen overnight, but it will happen, and it'll stay with you.

                “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

                  you've been running your whole life.

                   

                  Give or take a few decades.  I have a hard time remembering life before 30 anyway, so in a way it's true.

                  Runners run.


                  Tomorrow will be worse

                    How did you find out you were hitting intervals and tempos too hard?

                     

                    Just by talking with people about it - also that I was on my @ss for a couple days after a set of intervals that were way too much for where my fitness was. If McMillan's pace calculator is even close, I was training at the same paces as someone looking to run 2:45-3:00 marathon, and it was grinding me to bits. So yeah, I could feel that it was wrong, but the trial and error process to find what was right could easily have left me injured.

                     

                    Probably I should have done this whole "I'm a runner!" thing without a goal race (especially a marathon race) and could have tried all of these things much more organically, and would have had a better idea of a goal pace when starting a training plan. But then I wouldn't have been motivated to keep going out 6 days/wk through the cold snowy winter if I didn't have a marathon to survive, and wouldn't be where I am now

                      Probably I should have done this whole "I'm a runner!" thing without a goal race (especially a marathon race) and could have tried all of these things much more organically, and would have had a better idea of a goal pace when starting a training plan. But then I wouldn't have been motivated to keep going out 6 days/wk through the cold snowy winter if I didn't have a marathon to survive, and wouldn't be where I am now

                       

                      You hit the nail on the head.  Running for running's sake without a goal race is way easier said than done, at least at first.  My first road race was a marathon.  It was a bucket list deal and I never thought I'd do another one.  Two marathons and a few thousand miles later I found that I still wanted to train even without a goal marathon on the calendar--it had become habit.  Whatever gets you out the door is a good thing.

                      Runners run.


                      Tomorrow will be worse

                        So I did my speed test, as planned, and feel pretty good about these results - new PR for a 5K! Ok, well actually anything would have been a PR, since I've never raced, but I'm pretty proud of the time: 5Km in 18:39.95. Sweet!

                         

                        So apparently running slow lots does make you faster. Thanks Nobby

                         

                        MTA: Thanks Lydiard (via Nobby)

                        TripleBock


                          Although I am not a good runner - I agree that easy pace is easy pace because it is easy, not because your training plan states that a certain pace should be easy.  That being said - Most new runners and a lot of experienced runner are liars ... to themselves.  They run a recovery pace, easy pace, LAT pace etc at the speed they want or wish were those paces and generally are running faster than they should.

                           

                          Easy pace one day could be 15-20 even 30 seconds faster or slower than another day.  Generally it should be X:XX pace if you are in Y shape.

                           

                          To your original question ~ If you have went from a 24 minute (7:43) 5k runner to a 6:30 pace 5k runner ~ yes you should be running Easy - LAT - Marathon PAce - Vo2 pace faster in training.  Recover pace is really not a pace but a nice slow effortless jog.

                           

                          If this is your 1st marathon ~ I would take the conservative approach and adjust your paces less than full amount

                           

                          Easy pace or long run pace is the one I would be the most conservative on in training.  I would add 20+ seconds to it.

                          Marathon Pace - Maybe add 15 seconds to it in training

                          LAT - To actually get usefullness out of LAT pace you need to be close to it in the speed work ~ So maybe LAT +5 seconds

                          VO2 - Same as LAT - So Vo2 +5 seconds.

                           

                          Just my 2-cents

                           

                           

                          I don't know that this is true.

                           

                          I would suggest to you that most successful runners do not decide on their training paces, they discover them.  In training.

                           

                          Of course your fitness changes throughout a training build up--this is especially true if you are new to running.  Training paces should be associated with an effort, not a number--especially "easy pace".  I've never decided in advance what my easy pace is--I let the run decide for me.

                          I am fuller bodied than Dopplebock

                          TripleBock


                            Congrats ~ 24-25 and now 18:40 ~ Great progress ~ Stay healthy! 

                             

                            So I did my speed test, as planned, and feel pretty good about these results - new PR for a 5K! Ok, well actually anything would have been a PR, since I've never raced, but I'm pretty proud of the time: 5Km in 18:39.95. Sweet!

                             

                            So apparently running slow lots does make you faster. Thanks Nobby

                             

                            MTA: Thanks Lydiard (via Nobby)

                            I am fuller bodied than Dopplebock

                            TripleBock


                              What is your goal marathon time?

                              I am fuller bodied than Dopplebock


                              Tomorrow will be worse

                                What is your goal marathon time?

                                 

                                I started just racking up miles at actual easy pace in Nov, and until ~2weeks ago that's all I was doing (after intervals kicked my butt at the start of Nov), with random strides thrown in to make a crosswalk light or something like that. Past couple weeks I've started thinking about pace and trying to figure out where to be, so I've thrown in a day at "goal" pace (4:40-5 min/km) and a day faster than goal pace, with 1km intervals ~4:20/km.

                                 

                                Based on my brand new 5K time, I can run the marathon in under 3hrs, but I'm pretty sure I don't have the base for that and would blow up. Reasonable end is probably to crack 3:30, more ambitious is to crack 3:20.

                                 

                                Of course everything depends on what happens over the next 2 months - goal race is May 27th

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