Forums >Racing>Revising your goal pace
Jaime
I always kind of knew that Garmin sucks!!! My Suunto Ambit undershoots it so for me it is a decent starting point. Honestly I thought that Garmin was much better at guestimating this. The TomTom also doesn't seem to be as off as yours. Might be model dependent.
I love runalyze and miss many of the graphs/analysis here! It is one of the online resources that I meant.
HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)
2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!
Slower but happier
Thank you for the advice. I appreciate that you understood the intent of my (poorly phrased) question. I'm less concerned with "finishing in X time" as I am about pushing myself appropriately during training. I don't want to go too easy on myself, but I also don't want to injure myself. Prior to early 2017, all of my races were 5K (and I only completed one HM prior to my first marathon a couple of months ago). So I know I could absolutely benefit from the guidance of experienced individuals in this forum.
Thank you for the advice. I appreciate that you understood the intent of my (poorly phrased) question.
I'm less concerned with "finishing in X time" as I am about pushing myself appropriately during training. I don't want to go too easy on myself, but I also don't want to injure myself.
Prior to early 2017, all of my races were 5K (and I only completed one HM prior to my first marathon a couple of months ago). So I know I could absolutely benefit from the guidance of experienced individuals in this forum.
I’m jumping in late but good question, something I always struggle..here’s my 2 cent (I am just an average runner, mid pack):
For training paces: For me threshold is the murkiest pace to find. If your fast then the 15k race may get you close to LT pace or if you are slower like me, adding 10-15 sec to 10k pace is closer to what I would run in 60 min than 15k. But your upcoming 15k could be very useful for gauging your fitness anyway/getting an updated VDOT. VO2 max intervals can be your 5k pace. The rest is aerobic or recovery runs. That’s a start anyway
As far as adjusting MP during training: I am always adjusting, for eg my first Marathon Pace run 13 mi (8@MP). i was over enthusiastic, so I made an adjustment. I have 16 miles Long run with 10 at MP this weekend, and that will give me a good feel for where things stand with that pace/effort.
I dont o to pay attention to my GPS watch which more or less mocks me with predicted marathon times that are closer to what I would do at my threshold pace!
2020 goal: couch to 5K, currently working on the couch block
On the road in MN
It is a tough question - when to adjust training paces... race goals...etc. I always use past training and race results... compared to current training.... to point to future race results. Long key training training 'workouts' as test indicators...midway through training.
However...I guess the biggest thing people get focused on is pace of their everyday runs - there are countless studies and articles point towards the aerobic endurance gained from slow easy miles. (like...wow...SLOW). To put your 9min pace into perspective.... My easy paces are usually 8:30-9:10 pace... for a 19:30 5k and 3:22 full... mostly slow running and some fast... WORKS!
If you were tracking heart rate on easy runs that helps me feel good about it - if you are in the casual conversation pace... i could eat a PB&J sammy pace, lol.... you are probably going at the right pace! 60-75% of 'real max' heart rate... or below or around your 'MAF' heart rate... (think jog... 125-145bpm)
On your harder "workout" days - that is where running the appropriate pace matters a bit more (tempo , threshold, intervals, etc) - however most people easy miles and some 20-40sec sprint/strides are good enough!
5k: 19:29 Oct'17 26.2: 4:03 Oct'15 3:22 Grandmas June'17 Upcoming: Grandmas Marathon June'18
Waltons ThreadLord
I may soon be facing a similar quandary.
Based on my shorter races (5k - 5M), pace predictors come up with faster half marathon and marathon paces than I've managed. I'm hoping to improve my half marathon results before my next full marathon, but I still consider the results from pace predictors and VDOT tables to be aggressive for me.
So my question is, can I use the results of my recent, shorter races when determining paces for my speed work in marathon training (intervals and repeats) even when I suspect my actual race pace will be slower than predicted? Or do I have to slow down my speed work (even though I'm managing OK with it) in order to tie to a more conservative marathon goal?
5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)Upcoming races: Clinton Country Run 15k, 4/27; Running is Back 10k, 5/12
FredFord - Yes, you'd want to use a recent race 5k-HM to determine training paces. Using Marathon or Trail Runs don't give training paces that are appropriate from what I can tell. (...my two cents... grain sallt... lol)
The goal of the training paces is to trigger or train certain physical and mental attributes. Things like high paced sprints for economy, neruo-muscular coordination, strength, and form improvements.... longer intervals (2-6min) at fast pace to help trigger vo2max improvements (maximal oxygen use capacity)... strong 8-15min intervals to flood muscles with lactate increasing utilization/buffering capacity and stamina at high efforts... longer 'at or sub-threshold runs similar.... you name it. A 3min interval -at a not hard enough pace... doesn't really achieve the goal of a VO2max type workout-day... 3min isn't long enough to flood muscles with lactate... so really just becomes maybe a 6k-10k race pace practice... :-/ Similarly a 10min threshold interval done too easy...just becomes a moderate/high aerobic run.
Each type of workout - particular 'spokes' of your fitness 'wheel' are being supported or improved... knowing the effort or pace of them is somewhat important. Running the same 30 mpw easy will slowly help all spokes... but after a year or three, either paces or mileage must be increased for much improvement. If you use your marathon as a training pace calc... it will usually generate too slow of paces to be as effective as they should. (unless you are very well trained endurance athlete...or very low natural speed) Data like perceived exertion and/or heart rate data can help gauge if you are in the right ballpark, however under-trained or new runners both perceived exertion and also heart rate can be very skewed.
This is really interesting article about pacing predictor and marathon training. Im generally not too into using formularies but the article goes into some analysis of factors for training in general that affect the prediction model. Fortunately theres room for individual variability. I dont think it is anything revolutionary but i like the presentation.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2018/feb/15/an-updated-formula-for-marathon-running-success
i too find VDOT fits at faster paces but not general aerobic. I think because its based on higher milage younger runners but i cannot say that for certain.
This is really interesting article about pacing predictor and marathon training. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2018/feb/15/an-updated-formula-for-marathon-running-success
This is really interesting article about pacing predictor and marathon training.
Thanks for posting. Interesting analysis. I was struck by a rule-of-thumb mentioned that I had never heard of: “There’s a long-standing rule of thumb that says your five longest runs (5L for short) should add up to 100 miles.” Anyone else familiar with this “rule”? I don’t think I’ve followed a plan where I would meet this; Hanson’s would fall way short. But the analysis in the article lends some support for this 5L guidance (combined with other factors).
MTA: For the OP, this article would suggest slowing the average pace of most training runs — slower than goal marathon pace (9:00 min/mi or so for a sub-4 effort) at least, so maybe something like 9:30-ish or slower (as opposed to speeding up, per the question posed).
I dont do that 5L thing. A run like that for me is pretty long (over 3 hr) to the point i would be worried about injury at LR pace and diminishing training returns.
Agreed. These predictors need the option to add an overweight-middle-aged-desk-jockey fudge factor. Thanks for the link.
RUNandBIKENick- thanks for your insight too.
Are there any plans that have you do five 20 mile runs during training?
Apparently yes. I went back and checked my own data. My last marathon had the following 5 longest training runs:
Total: 98.9 miles -- closer than I thought. I followed something called "Simple Marathon Training."
Pace Prophet
Fred - I think speedwork should be done at the paces the calculator suggests. The falling-short in longer races is due to (lack of) endurance, not speed. To shore up your endurance I can only suggest logging miles, and progression/fast-finish runs.
My first marathon, I did a 26 mile LR. (Galloway ) My most recent and best, I did 3 19-milers at max. I don't think that 5L "rule" is worth much! But I do agree that regular training runs should be easy pace, which should be significantly slower than MP. For lower-mileage runners MP often turns out to be about the same as easy pace (or slower...), though, because they don't have the endurance to maintain their theoretical ability.
I have heard and accepted the gospel of more miles run at an easy pace. I'm training for a half right now, and running about as many miles per week as I did when training for my first full marathon. Hopefully, that and the speed work I've added will show results this spring, and I can build off that for the fall.
To find your training paces, if you don't have a race close by, try to put a 5K time trial yourself, replacing a 20-30 minute tempo or some long intervals. Prepare for it as if it were a race. easy runs or rest in the previous days, look for ideal conditions and do a good warmup. Recovering from a 5K shouldn't impact significantly the rest of your training Mick, My Garmin watch puts me between 58 and 60, however my best race performance is 52 Runalyze calculates it now around 53.5 which is closer to reality, at least at HM. For a friend, his Garmin was giving him 52 to 54 but his best performance is around 46
To find your training paces, if you don't have a race close by, try to put a 5K time trial yourself, replacing a 20-30 minute tempo or some long intervals. Prepare for it as if it were a race. easy runs or rest in the previous days, look for ideal conditions and do a good warmup.
Recovering from a 5K shouldn't impact significantly the rest of your training
Mick,
My Garmin watch puts me between 58 and 60, however my best race performance is 52
Runalyze calculates it now around 53.5 which is closer to reality, at least at HM.
For a friend, his Garmin was giving him 52 to 54 but his best performance is around 46
My best race vdot is 49. My garmin says I'm a 49. *says in Forrest Gump voice*
Personal Bests: 5k 19:43 (04/2017), 10k 43.24 (10/2016), Half 1:33:18 (10/2017), Full 3:32:47 (05/2017)2018 Targets: 5k: sub19, 10k: sub41, Half: sub90