Lance Armstrong appears finally to have run out of rope. (Read 2696 times)


Fat butt on couch

    Sorry, I put EPO and PEDs in the same category.  

     

    I'm not sure what you mean by this.  EPO is a PED.

    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

     

      I'm not sure what you mean by this.  EPO is a PED.

       It is also a patent office. 

       

      HAHAHAAAA!

      "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

        Still looking for a USADA/WADA that did not involve an assertedly positive test.  

         

        In cycling specifically? Otherwise I'm pretty sure Marion Jones counts.

         

        There have been a bunch in cycling as well.  Some for failure to comply with testing, which I guess you could technically call a positive test under the rules but a few have been busted as a result of police investigations into doping conspiracies.  Ivan Basso got a 2 year ban without a positive test as a result of a doping investigation.  That's one without any research. I'm sure there are others.

        Runners run.

          In cycling specifically? Otherwise I'm pretty sure Marion Jones counts.

           

          There have been a bunch in cycling as well.  Some for failure to comply with testing, which I guess you could technically call a positive test under the rules but a few have been busted as a result of police investigations into doping conspiracies.  Ivan Basso got a 2 year ban without a positive test as a result of a doping investigation.  That's one without any research. I'm sure there are others.

           

          Basso fessed up to "seeking out" doping when the evidence started to come in. I'm guessing it was in his best interest to go ahead and confess rather than fight.

           

          David Millar also confessed after his house was searched and EPO found. I don't think he tested positive but was suspended nonetheless.

           

          Scarponi, winner of last year's Giro, was caught up in Puerto, confessed then suspended. This is interesting because so many involved with Puerto got away.

           

          This week Alex Rasmussen (formerly with Garmin) was banned because he couldn't get his "whereabouts" straight. I think he was provisionally on Denmark's Olympic team.

           

          The list goes on and on. None of these are USADA/WADA but what does that matter? They seem to be willing to ban anyone, from any country, anywhere, retired or not.

          xor


            Oh the irony...in the past you have often take shots at the expense of others but the one time someone does it to you...and only to make a point that you had just done the same thing to another...you can't let it go after what, 2 years?  Dude, move on already.  The over-reaction has been nothing short of creepy.  Heck I can't even remember the specifics but they appear to be burned into the back of your eyeballs.

             

             

            Well, I have definitely been accused sometimes at taking a shot "at the expense" of someone.  90% of the time, I feel bad when that happens because practically ALWAYS, I'm goofing on language (the words I see on the page) and not intending to be personal.  But realizing that still comes across poorly, I honestly feel bad.  As for "often"... well, dude, you don't seem like you have any sense of humor WHATSOEVER AT ANY TIME and I suspect that some of the stuff in your "often" bucket was not considered a shot by the person you decided I took a shot at.

             

            But sometimes it has.  I know I rub people the wrong way.  Some people all the time.  All people some of the time.  And I try to learn and do better.

             

            And that's all I have to say about that.  I am self-aware enough to know that I can improve on things and to actually give a shit about how I come across to others. 

             

            xor


              Well, one more thing.

               

              Wink

               

              Because that ALWAYS makes a message clearer.

               

                The list goes on and on. 

                 

                How could I forget seven time Tour KOM winner Richard Virenque? I don't think he ever tested positive but confessed and was suspended.

                  I'm doing a poor job of making a point.  Maybe I'm better off just sticking with smart-ass comments.  

                   

                  My point is that USADA (Tygart) is misusing the arbitration process.  It's fine to chase cheaters given appropriate procedural protections. Marion Jones knew she'd have a chance to go to court, face her accusers, review the evidence in advance, and let a jury decide with a known standard of proof and rules of evidence.  None of that exists in arbitration.  The real purpose of USADA/WADA -- and the arbitration process -- is to implement and monitor testing, not to circumvent criminal and civil laws.  Tygart has already "cheated," if you will, by using the criminal arm of the US government to compel testimony and gather evidence that he could not have obtained through the "agreed-upon" arbitration process.   

                   

                  Of course the USADA has the right to sanction athletes who admit doping but that's not a fact-finding process.  When has WADA or USADA ever pursued an athlete through arbitration without the benefit of a test result (or, as correctly pointed out, breaking the rules about showing up for testing)?  Virenque confessed (the TdF tried to ban him one year without a hearing and the UCI overturned the ban).  Basso confessed.  I know there are dozens of bans but I can't think of a circumstance anything like this.  

                   

                  It remains very clear to me that the hyperfocus on Lance Armstrong is politically motivated, not good business sense.  I'm not saying he's clean.  In fact, I'd be in favor of wiping out all TdF results in the 2000s on general principles.  Truly it was a mess and it seems the most damning evidence is the argument that no one could win clean.  USADA should spend its limited budget on making things better -- better tests, more frequent tests, whatever as we approach the Olympic -- not chasing "the one that got away."  It's all very Captain Ahab.  

                    I'm not sure what you mean by this.  EPO is a PED.

                     

                    Exactly, I thought you were drawing a distinction because Hellebuyck tested positive for EPO but confessed to drugs.  misunderstanding i guess.  

                      ... Tygart has already "cheated," if you will, by using the criminal arm of the US government to compel testimony and gather evidence that he could not have obtained through the "agreed-upon" arbitration process....  

                       

                      ... USADA should spend its limited budget on making things better -- better tests, more frequent tests, whatever as we approach the Olympic -- not chasing "the one that got away."  It's all very Captain Ahab.  

                      USADA should be able to use evidence regardless of its origin, so long as it's trustworthy and not the fruit of a poison tree.  Tygart doesn't control DOJ -- he didn't pull the strings to make them dance and gather evidence he couldn't get through USADA channels.

                       

                      If testing technology inherently will lag behind doping technology, then dopers are extremely unlikely to be caught in the act.  The next best thing for USADA is to prosecute the living shit out of anyone they can catch.  If you can't catch them when they are doping, you want them to know with certainty that their lives will be hell if they get caught later.  And that your testing technology will let you reach back in time to test samples that have been archived in part precisely for that purpose.  Based on that reasoning, I don't have a problem with a doping agency going after a retired athlete such as Armstrong.

                      “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman


                      Fat butt on couch

                        Exactly, I thought you were drawing a distinction because Hellebuyck tested positive for EPO but confessed to drugs.  misunderstanding i guess.  

                         

                        Nope.  I read your post as saying Hellebuyck had admitted but not tested positive.  I was correcting that comment (at least how I read it) to clarify that he had tested positive for EPO.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         

                          In fact, I'd be in favor of wiping out all TdF results in the 2000s on general principles. 

                           

                          Don't forget the 90s too. Riis confessed to doping on his own accord and wasn't stripped of his 1997 Tour title.

                           

                          Just as with the MLB, I look at that time as the "doping era" and see results in that context. In my view, the biggest difference between Lance and a majority of the field was that he could afford a more sophisticated program.

                           

                          I don't like the idea of stripping his titles only to give them to other dopers.

                           


                          Fast is better than long

                            For the first point, is the training regime of cyclsts publicly available?  While I thought he was clean for a long time, I now feel that the mounting evidence, circumstantial though it may be, meets the reasonability threshold. Even with that, I still think he trainined harder, that US. Postal and Discovery team really targetted the tour at the expense of other races. That team was on the bleeding edge of most of the technology and training curves. I really feel that he and his teams were truly better prepared for the tour than other teams were. I mean less than 20 years ago, the race morning breakfast was coffee or even wine and a bagel/croissant. I recall the stories of how Lance's tires are cured for 7 years before they use them; his teams strategies kept him in safer positions so that peloton accidents seldom affected him. I think that in addition to all of his actual advantages he did probably have the most sophisticated PEDS program.

                             

                            As to the second statement; how true, who should get the titles in his absence? Jan? who already had tour podium result stripped. It's just a tough call and like Oscar P. said, having the title confered without the ability to celebrate on the Champ Elysees is rather hollow and who recalls him as champion.

                             

                            In my view, the biggest difference between Lance and a majority of the field was that he could afford a more sophisticated program.

                             

                            I don't like the idea of stripping his titles only to give them to other dopers.

                             

                            2014 Goals: 2500 miles / sub 2 800m / 4:30 mile / sub 16:30 5K


                            Give a man a fire and he'll be warm the rest of the night;
                            Set a man afire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

                            What in the Jehu?


                            Menace to Sobriety

                              (there. a pop culture reference.  If it was 1944.)

                               I think that was grand pop culture.

                              Janie, today I quit my job. And then I told my boss to go f*** himself, and then I blackmailed him for almost sixty thousand dollars. Pass the asparagus.

                                USADA should be able to use evidence regardless of its origin, so long as it's trustworthy and not the fruit of a poison tree.  Tygart doesn't control DOJ -- he didn't pull the strings to make them dance and gather evidence he couldn't get through USADA channels.

                                 

                                If testing technology inherently will lag behind doping technology, then dopers are extremely unlikely to be caught in the act.  The next best thing for USADA is to prosecute the living shit out of anyone they can catch.  If you can't catch them when they are doping, you want them to know with certainty that their lives will be hell if they get caught later.  And that your testing technology will let you reach back in time to test samples that have been archived in part precisely for that purpose.  Based on that reasoning, I don't have a problem with a doping agency going after a retired athlete such as Armstrong.

                                 

                                1.  Disagree.  Tygart absolutely got evidence he couldn't get through USADA channels.  He sat in on interviews with federal agent Jeff Novitsky (Balco/Marion Jones), which is highly unusual, has documents subpoenaed by the feds, and apparently has access to grand jury proceedings even those are considered secret (and which the feds leaked regularly).  There's virtually no discovery in arbitration.  

                                 

                                2.  In an world of unlimited resources, I might be inclined to agree that it makes sense to never give up.  But USADA's only got so much money and it doesn't make sense to spend half its budget chasing a long-since retired bicycle rider and running the risk that a federal court will strike down some aspect of the USADA enforcement protocol.  The Olympics are coming.  Let's make sure those are squeaky clean, no?  

                                 

                                3.  Maybe Spaniel can tell me, but shouldn't there be old samples that USADA can use for its new and improved testing?