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pre race (half marathon) meal (Read 3103 times)

runnerclay


Consistently Slow

    There is also the potential problem (for me at least) that pre-race topping off causes digestive and/or pee-related issues and that associated penalty.

    +1. Refuel on the run. Eat /drink. Off topic of pre-race meal.

    Run until the trail runs out.

     SCHEDULE 2016--

     The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

    unsolicited chatter

    http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

    Trent


    Good Bad & The Monkey

      You say performance drops off quickly. I would argue, based on my own experience, that it drops off gradually for quite a while, and then drops off quickly.

       

      Perhaps.  The question I have is, why would you think that the gradual performance decline has anything to do with glycogen (as versus simple fatigue or any number of factors)?  In a 5k, for example, your effort increases and performance may decrease.  However, I would doubt that this decline in performance (or the increase in perceived effort to require a similar pace) has to do with glycogen.

       

      I would also ask: why do you think your performance drops off gradually for quite a while?  Does your pace drop?  You are an excellent runner and racer, I suspect that your pace stays fairly level or even increases in a well-run race.  Does your intensity / effort increase?  I suspect that it does, but why does that mean that your performance is dropping?  And as above, why would an increase in effort necessarily have anything to do with glycogen (as versus simple fatigue or any number of factors)?

       

       

      The unanswered question is, at what point does performance start to suffer? Since we don't know that point, wouldn't it make sense to try to keep glycogen levels as high as possible before and during a half marathon?

       

      If we knew that glycogen decline were the cause, sure. In my experience, taking energy gels or gatorade during a HM does not seem to influence my performance, but I do not know whether this has been studied.  But that is anecdote. The research I do know looks at blood sugar levels, which do not decline.

       

       

      Remember, we're not talking about simply finishing. I agree with you that just about any runner should be able to go 13+ miles on stored glycogen alone. But at maximum effort for the distance, and without any decrease in performance? I'm not so sure.

       

      I was not clear in my use of the term "maximal effort".  The maximal effort required to race a good HM or M is lower than the maximal effort required to race a 100 meter, and the proportion of glycogen use as a fuel source differs across these.  When I used "maximal effort", I intended to imply the single most maximal effort you can produce, not the maximal effort required to race a given distance. That maximal effort would not be sustainable more than a handful of meters due to other factors that cause exhaustion.

       

      The rate of glycogen use relative to fat use as an energy source, as you know, directly correlates with effort.  The higher the effort, the more that energy comes from glycogen rather than fat.  The effort required to use glycogen as the sole glycogen source is a true maximal effort.  Think something like a 100 meter sprint.  A 5k effort is not maximal, but is still fairly high and uses a high proprotion of glycogen to fuel, but cannot be sustained more than 5k (by definition).  By time you have adjusted your effort down to the maximal effort required for a HM or a M, you are using quite a bit of fat to fuel your run.  You still need glycogen, sure.  But that does not mean you need an extra fuel source.

       

      Funny numbers:  let's say you weigh 175 lbs.  For each mile you run, you need about 125 kcal of fuel.  A fully glycogen-loaded body can hold about 2000 kcal of glycogen (but this really does not happen; no carb load is perfect).  Day to day, maybe we hold 1500 kcal of glycogen.  If you were to put out a maximal effort and fuel 100% off glycogen off that 1500 kcal, you would bonk after 12 miles.  But, as above, you also burn fat.  If you went out and ran a HM off the 1500 kcal at full HM effort, you might be getting 75% of your energy from glycogen (I believe it is lower, but I'll go with this for now as a more glycgogen-centric view), you get 16 miles before you bonk.  Plenty to complete a HM. 

      Trent


      Good Bad & The Monkey

        Question is, is there also some intra-muscular glycostat that, e.g., informs the hypothalamus that we should be tired? If so, then that does argue for topping off glycogen stores for maximum performance.

         

        Maybe.  However, I am not aware of any evidence of this.  The known glycostat, blood glucose concentration, does not decline gradually, especially relative to normal natural variation.  Interestingly, as I understand it, blood glycogen does not decline during a bonk either.  That to me implies that maybe there is another signal that we have not identified.

         

         

        So much that just seems not to be known about fatigue.

         

        Fatigue is likely many things.

          Hi, doing a half marathon in may, training going well, i'm coming back to running after a year or so off. Not done a half marathon before.  I'm interested in any advice on pre race meal that will help with energy delivery.

           

          Thanks in advance.

           

          OLY

           

          I agree with "eat what you normally eat" and also with "eat whatever you plan to eat on race day prior to one of your long training runs," but will add my experience.  What I can eat before a long easy run, and what I can eat before a half marathon at a harder effort aren't necessarily the same thing...so for me experimenting with food on days I ran a harder effort was helpful.  Currently coffee and a piece of toast with Nutella are working.

          Trent


          Good Bad & The Monkey

            On this subject, there is a related issue I wonder about.  There is lots of talk out there about training so that you burn more fat.  The more miles you run, the better your engine, the better you train, all to increase the proportion of calories that come from fat.  To my mind, all this training improves your ability to run a given pace at a lower effort/intensity.  The increased proportional fat burning that accompanies this has more to do with the lower effort than to anything else.  The kicker is this: as you get into better shap, you then run faster in your race.  That is, before I trained, I ran a marathon in 4:00 at intensity X.  Then I trained and ran the next season's marathon at 3:42, still at intensity X.  My pace per intensity sped up, but I doubt that the proportion of calories coming from fat changed.

            AmoresPerros


            Options,Account, Forums

              +1.  Don't eat eggs.  Just trust me on that one.  You only make that mistake once in your life.   

               

              -1. I enjoy a nice egg breakfast. So remember many runners, especially the less experienced, are likely to overgeneralize based on their own experience, and you need to find what works for you personally.

              It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                -1. I enjoy a nice egg breakfast. So remember many runners, especially the less experienced, are likely to overgeneralize based on their own experience, and you need to find what works for you personally.

                Yup...if I am in a hurry, I just drink a big glass of milk...works for me, but I know a lot of runners can't tolerate milk before a run/race.  What doesn't work for me...a bowl of Amy's veggie chili.


                SMART Approach

                  Oly, I think your biggest issue now is not being fit enough before the May race but that is not your question. As mentioned, previously everyone has a different tolerance to food before running and racing. For me, I can eat some solid food if 3 hours before a race. I choose not. I like to top off my carb stores with some gels. Before a half, I will take 3 gels about 2.5-3 hrs before the race. I take this with 12 oz of water. I like the Accel Gel as it also has some protein. Works fabulous for me and give your body time handle the blood sugar response.

                   

                  I do find value and do think some carbs before a half can provide some benefit. Throughout evening, you are burning carbs. Obviously, you are not burning a lot while sleeping but when you get up, you may have gone 10-12 hours without eating or without carbs. Does not seem wise to me to have burned some carbs for 10-12 hours without some replenishment before the half. A 5K or 10K, probably not a big deal but I follow and recommend the same formula above - 2.5-3hrs before the race, fuel and hydrate up - but not in excess.

                  Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

                  Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training

                  Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique

                  www.smartapproachtraining.com

                  AmoresPerros


                  Options,Account, Forums

                    There may also be psychological value in keeping a routine that works for you, once you find it - to help get you in a familiar groove. Not that I'm any kind of expert, just another hobbyjogger making guesses.

                    It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                    runnerclay


                    Consistently Slow

                      Oly, I think your biggest issue now is not being fit enough before the May race but that is not your question.

                      +1. Did anyone else look at his logged miles? Stop the tempo running and log easy runs. Set your goal to make it to  the start line and finish line. Have you ever run over 13 miles? I know. Unsolicited advice.

                      Run until the trail runs out.

                       SCHEDULE 2016--

                       The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                      unsolicited chatter

                      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                        Funny numbers:  let's say you weigh 175 lbs.  For each mile you run, you need about 125 kcal of fuel.  A fully glycogen-loaded body can hold about 2000 kcal of glycogen (but this really does not happen; no carb load is perfect).  Day to day, maybe we hold 1500 kcal of glycogen.  If you were to put out a maximal effort and fuel 100% off glycogen off that 1500 kcal, you would bonk after 12 miles.  But, as above, you also burn fat.  If you went out and ran a HM off the 1500 kcal at full HM effort, you might be getting 75% of your energy from glycogen (I believe it is lower, but I'll go with this for now as a more glycgogen-centric view), you get 16 miles before you bonk.  Plenty to complete a HM. 

                        Further to Dakota's point, though, is whether the drop-off is a step function, a more gradual decline, or some complex blend of the two.  If there's going to be any gradual decline over those last 4 miles or so ... then I can see his point.  Not that the OP should carbo-load to the point of bloating or excessive weight gain.

                         

                         

                        One thing I wanted to ask about: for two runners running at the same relative effort but where Runner A runs a HM in 1:40 and Runner B in 2:30 ... are glycogen stores an issue for Runner B?  Whether absolutely or relatively?

                        "I want you to pray as if everything depends on it, but I want you to prepare yourself as if everything depends on you."

                        -- Dick LeBeau

                        fasteronce


                          I am not aware of any data that would answer the question.  Clearly, when they drop very low, performance goes south fast.  But I do not think there is any linear decline before that.  Given a middlin' glycogen store and a submaximal effort (e.g., HM effort), you should be able to go well over 13 miles on stored glycogen.

                           

                          isn't this more related to time than the mileage period?  I am not sure on this, but I thought I remembered reading it when comparing slower half marathon runners to faster ones and how to prepare.

                          Closest I can find now is Pfizinger saying glycogen is an important consideration in runs lasting longer than 1.5 hours and it could impact someone running a half at about an hour and cause problems if not prepared.

                          http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/eatdrink.shtml

                           

                          But I'm sure nothing crazy is needed for most people... a normal carbohydrate based breakfast.  I normally have oatmeal with protein in the morning, and I probably would just have the oatmeal plain before a half (so my stomach doesn't possibly get upset), and some more carbs the previous few days because my normal diet isn't super high in carbohydrates.

                          runnerclay


                          Consistently Slow

                             


                            http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/eatdrink.shtml

                             

                             

                            Thanks.

                            Glycogen Loading

                            Glycogen loading (carbohydrate loading) has been popular since the late 1960's when Dr. Per-Olof Astrand showed that athletes can essentially double their muscle glycogen stores by running a long run 7 days before a race, then eating a low carbohydrate diet for 3 days, followed by a high carbohydrate diet (70-80% of calories from carbohydrates) for the 3 days preceding the race. The long run depletes your body's glycogen stores and the 3 days of low carbohydrate intake keeps them low. This triggers a mechanism in your body to store as much carbohydrate as possible. The down-side is that by day 3 of the low carbohydrate diet you will probably feel weak and irritable, and your loved ones will avoid you like the plague.

                            Fortunately, more recent research by exercise physiologist William Sherman and others has shown that glycogen stores can be elevated to the same levels without the long run and low carbohydrate phases. Here's how. Eat a normal mixed diet up until the last 3 days before the race, and taper your training program to about half your normal training load. Then eat a high carbohydrate diet the last 3 days, and just do a warm-up jog on those days. Your body will store glycogen to a similar level as under Dr. Astrand's program.

                            You should expect to gain a couple of pounds when you glycogen load because your body stores 2.6 grams of water for every gram of glycogen. Don't be alarmed by the added weight. It is inevitable, and the stored water will actually help to prevent dehydration during the race.

                            Run until the trail runs out.

                             SCHEDULE 2016--

                             The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                            unsolicited chatter

                            http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                            Trent


                            Good Bad & The Monkey

                              isn't this more related to time than the mileage period?

                               

                              I do not understand.

                              Trent


                              Good Bad & The Monkey

                                One thing I wanted to ask about: for two runners running at the same relative effort but where Runner A runs a HM in 1:40 and Runner B in 2:30 ... are glycogen stores an issue for Runner B?  Whether absolutely or relatively?

                                 

                                Glycogen stores should not be an issue in most people when racing 13.1 miles.  However, runner B likely is running at a lower intensity and is therefore fueling from a relatively higher proportion of fat than runner A.

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