Forums >Racing>2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run.
Problem Child
That's probably the workout I remember the most when I did 2Q last year for multiple reasons, but one of them was because I asked my wife to bike along side me so that I could have hydration available and not stop at all for the 10 straight miles of 8M + 2T. It was brutal, but I got it done. Definitely give it a shot!
damn......I was hoping it was an elite thing or a type. T pace is like 6:30 for me and M is about 45 seconds slower. Tomorrow is going to be rough. Mostly because I need to figure out my loops so I'm not too far from home in case I die.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Mmmm Bop
Tapering - Has anyone tried different versions of tapering? Did you find one more successful than the other? I've tapered both of my marathons to the tune of 85% 3 weeks out, 70% 2 weeks out, but I know Pfitz is a bit more drastic with 80% then 60%. The reason I'm asking is that this cycle (if I stay healthy) will be the first time I'm not ramping up my mileage during the last few weeks before tapering. Instead, I'll be peaking with about 8 weeks to go and holding at 70. I was wondering whether this should change any of my taper strategy at all, or whether I should stick to my 85/70 taper plan.
Your NYC marathon went perfect last year so I wouldn’t tamper too much with it! If you’re holding at 70 for 8 weeks and feeling good then I’d say you could get away with a steeper taper.
I’ve never followed a plan and had some interesting experiences...but a 2 week taper with the last big workout 10 days out seems to work best for me. I was the Brighton 3:30 pacer the week before I ran my marathon PR at London in 2013.....which would suggest I recovery quickly from long runs. 😀
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
RIP Milkman
Yeah I agree it went well, but always looking for improvements, especially because I'll be doing more of a hold at a peak rather than just continuing to ramp up. Not sure whether that means I would need more taper, or less taper. Anyway, I think I'm going to do something like this for the remainder of my schedule. Would be very happy if I can hit this, as it'll get me to averaging 63 miles over a 12 week period before the final 2 weeks, which is a significant improvement over the 53 I averaged for the last marathon. Hopefully all of this extra mileage makes up for my completely lost winter of training!
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Jmac I've never done a "DIY" marathon training cycle so take this for what it's worth. Hanson's plans do 10 day tapers with the last workout being the start of the 10 day taper, or maybe it's the day before. Others say 2 weeks. If you'll feel refreshed and ready to go doing 48 then 50 go for it. I've done well with both and I'm just going to roll with what JD says. It looks like about the same mileage as you're planning.
SU 90 E
M 60 E
T 3E + 3X(1t + 2 MIN E) + 2E
W 50 MIN E
TH 30-40 MIN E
F 0-20 MIN E (travel day for me)
Sa 20-30 E
using 8:00 pace it's a little over 44 miles. The last workout at T pace 5 days before the marathon will be interesting but I'm sure plenty of people have had success with it.
Brew - I'm not including that final 90 minutes (12 miles for me) in my 50 total, since it's technically not part of race week. My 50 miles includes the race, so it's only 24 miles or so the week of the race. My last week looks like this. The 7.5 on Tuesday is 7+strides, and the 8 on Wed is the T workout. I always take 2 days off before a race, regardless of what Daniels says. I think that extra day of rest helps a lot more than just doing 4 miles.
JMac: Ok, that makes more sense. Initially I thought you were doing 50 miles the week of your race, not including the race! I do a similar taper the final week, an easy 12 as the last long run (though not really long at 12 mi), then a day off, then 6-8 easy, and finally 6 with a single MP or slightly faster mile in the last run. Then two full days off before the race. This is what I've done for all my marathons so I don't plan to modify it significantly. If anything I would do even less. I've always thought about taking 3 full days off prior to the race instead of 2, but have never actually tried it.
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
12 off 6-8 6 off off race
2:52:16 (2018)
JT - yeah the whole days off thing is interesting. Everybody says they never do it because they would feel stale, but I feel great after taking a day off. I'm just not willing to try it on my marathon day. Just gonna stick to what I've done in that regard. I did run a 5K with my wife the day before the marathon last year which was great because it forced me to run 9 minute miles (her 5K race pace) instead of probably closer to 7:30 the day before.
Jmac ah...50 with 26 at race pace makes sense. I like having at least ONE day off before a race even when it's only a 2 hour drive away. Traveling I'm going to want AT LEAST one day off. Maybe some walking around town so I don't feel like I'm boring my wife and mother in law with JUST racing. It's still sort of a family trip...even if it's mostly about me for a day or two. Maybe I'll connect with you in Chicago and do that 3 mile run if you feel like coasting through some EASY miles. It will give me an easy Strava title. Since you mention the 5K, and Chicago has one, I could always do that with my MIL if we can't connect. 9-10:00 pace wouldn't kill me. I've previously done 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 for a taper with a day or two off for a marathon which was just easy to remember.
I know it's a bit of a controversial topic, and it's probably been covered here before, but I'm curious if anybody has thoughts on Yasso 800s, and their experiences as a marathon predictor. My pfitz training program called for a race today (I'm one day ahead of schedule), and I couldn't find anything good around, so I wanted to do something speed related and I couldn't will myself to a tempo run that I would probably fail at in the heat. I had never done Yassos, so I decided to give it a try with the goal of completing 10 800 under 3 minutes. I was able to complete the workout averaging around 2:57. I've also read you are supposed to add 5 minutes to get your actual time...not sure if that applies to experienced high mileage runners though.
I didn't do this workout as a predictor, but since it's done, just curious what experience others have had.
As for the rest of the week, it went well, except for Wednesday when I felt like a complete newbie for having to walk 3/4 mile in the middle of a 14 miler because I did my track work too quickly the day before, and got bored during the first half of the run and spent 3 miles chasing somebody down that was going faster than I should have been. Both rookie mistakes.
5k- 18:55 (2018) 10K- 39:04 (2017) Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)
Sling - I've never done Yassos before so can't help you on that. I know most people think they're garbage as a predictor. Better to go to do a 5K time trial than that.
Brewing - I'm not running Chicago this year, I'm running NYC (which is probably why you're noticing workouts that you've already done on my Strava). I actually initially planned on doing Chicago, but then thought better given the fact that it's always warm. I do want to find a "PR" course one day, continuing to run NYC is not going to get me my potential. I have mixed feelings on CIM. Seems cool, but wouldn't feel great about claiming a PR on the course.
Sling - I've never done Yassos before so can't help you on that. I know most people think they're garbage as a predictor. Better to go to do a 5K time trial than that. Brewing - I'm not running Chicago this year, I'm running NYC (which is probably why you're noticing workouts that you've already done on my Strava). I actually initially planned on doing Chicago, but then thought better given the fact that it's always warm. I do want to find a "PR" course one day, continuing to run NYC is not going to get me my potential. I have mixed feelings on CIM. Seems cool, but wouldn't feel great about claiming a PR on the course.
Jmac THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS! Damn...I thought you were doing Chicago. CIM is a good one. Plenty of people claim an OTQ on the course so I don't know why you'd have a problem claiming a PR on it. It's not as downhill as it seems. 1/3 downhill, 1/3 rolling hills, 1/3 pancake flat. I believe it's mostly the weather (40-50s, light breeze, and some cloud cover) along with crowd support and the training season being August - November helping people run fast there. People bonk there just like people PR there. I may also be biased because it's 2-3 hours away and I have 2 PRs there along with my Chicago time. Hopefully Chicago brings nice weather for me.
sling I've done them. They worked for me for the marathon I did them in. I haven't done them since. I honestly believe it's a snake oil run because if you're putting in 70 miles you might be a little tired compared to running 40 miles. I also think 1 workout isn't going to predict your marathon fitness. If someone said running 26.2km worked for marathon predictors would you want to do that over a tempo run? Honestly, the only thing I think is a good predictor of marathon fitness is a marathon (kidding, kinda) or maybe a half marathon on a similar course.
JMac – Tapering is still a mystery to me (after 13 marathons). I have absolutely no idea whether I’d be better off making it longer or shorter. I’ve mostly done 3 week tapers, but there have been a few 2 week tapers as well. I read somewhere that you need a longer taper as you get older, but it’s probably another one of those things that varies a lot from person to person (and probably also varies according to your weekly mileage and other factors). I plan to follow the Pfitz plan this cycle as closely as possible, including the 3-week taper. If I don’t reach my sub-3 goal, it won’t be because I didn’t follow the plan.
Sling – I did Yasso 800s last summer as part of my marathon training (different plan). There were 3 Yasso workouts in that plan, building up from 8 reps, to 9, then 10, with several weeks between them. By the time I did the 3rd Yasso workout (the only “full” Yasso), my avg. time per rep had improved from ~2:57 when I did 8 reps, to ~2:53 when I did 10. I have no clue if they did me any good, but it felt good at the time to knock out the workout. And I factored in the +5 minutes to estimate a sub-3 marathon, which gave me a confidence boost. Yeah, I finished in 3:05 with my usual leg cramps stopping me in my tracks for a couple minutes … at the 25.8 mile point. No Yassos for me in this cycle.
Me – Still following the Pfitz plan (mostly) to the letter … except yesterday, where I forgot to do 6x strides during an easy 7-miler (oops!). Tomorrow is supposed to be a “tune-up race,” 8K-15K with total mileage of around 13 miles. I can’t find a local race of suitable distance, so my plan is to do 3 w/u miles, then a 7-mile time trial, then 3 c/d miles. I have no goal for the 7 miles, but I’d like to finish it strong. There is an 18-mile LR scheduled the day after tomorrow, which will make this the first “back-to-back” hard days I’ve seen in this plan. 18 on tired legs should be a good training stimulus, although the pace will be less than spectacular. Oh, and the heat and humidity are expected to return this weekend. Yay.
I would see it as similar to the McMillan calculator in that it would be more accurate if you’re averaging 70+mpw. I don’t think it would ever be accurate for a fastwitch lower mileage marathoner! Did you do it on the track with 3min 400 recovery? That was still a good workout regardless. 👍
Another solid week for me; now halfway done with the Pftiz 12 week plan. I hit my VO2 max workout right on pace though it was challenging. 5x1200m w/ 2:30 recovery. I certainly am not used to going that fast. Then today I did a local half marathon as an MP workout. I was a few seconds per mile fast but ran very even splits and felt like I had a lot left when I finished. Assuming I get 6.5 in tomorrow I'll hit 89 this week. Next week is 90 with a 7 mile LAT and a 22 mile long run.
Marky_mark - thanks for the singlet recommendation. I bought one and like it so far. It's certainly lightweight.
madisonrunner -- congrats on the AG win in your MP workout! Nice write-up in your running log. You mentioned several products in which I am at least somewhat interested: Vaporfly 4%, Endurolytes, and Maurten. I probably won't change shoes before October, but interested in whether you think those shoes make much of a difference. Fueling and leg cramping are always issues for me, and the Endurolyte capsules might help with my leg cramping issues, so I'll probably give those a try soon (I've never tried swallowing pills during a race before ...). I've been using Hammer Perpetuem to fuel my long runs lately, and I might stick with that. Maurten sounds interesting, though. What is the basic idea with that stuff?
Finished week 12 (of 18) of Pfitz today. Yesterday and today were "back-to-back" hard days, in my opinion, the first I've seen in this plan. Yesterday was supposed to be a tune-up Race of 8-15K. I ran a 10K Time Trial in the middle of a 13 mile route, averaging 6:29 pace. I expected today's Long Run (scheduled 18-miler) to be very difficult due to residual fatigue from yesterday (and humid conditions today, etc.). It wasn't as bad as expected -- average pace about 7:45 on a hilly route. Here's the last week:
DAY
6 am
4 pm
6.0 am,
4.0 pm
8.6
VO2: 5 x 600m @5K pace, Cheetah-style
15
7
7.0
Aerobic, 8:44 pace
6
6.0
12.6
10k trial @6:29 pace + easy miles
77.4 mi