Forums >Racing>2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run.
Great job Madison! Impressive!
I started the race and bailed at mile 18, right before the update I guess. Conditions at the start were 66 with 100% humidity, and went up a bit to around 70 with dew point like 69 when I stopped. There was also a 5-10 mph wind that was largely a headwind, and never a tailwind.
Came through first mile in 6:40, but felt like I was working way too hard for the first mile. I did mile 2 in 6:45, and by then I was already completely sweat covered. Mile 3 contains a very big downhill lose, and I did that in like 6:45, and at that point I decided to pull the plug as I would have needed to bank way more time or energy... I've run enough marathons to know that it's not supposed to feel that hard. I told my support I would keep going until mile 18.
I was running at too hard a pace to be able to maintain my pace, but I was able to go through halfway in 1:29:49, so even though I was resigned to stop, I was still treating it like a marathon pace run. I probably averaged around 7:05 per the next 5 miles from 13-18. It was an easy decision to quit when I did. There were bad hills coming up and the temperatures were only getting worse.
Next decision is whether to try a flatter cooler marathon outside Boston in 2 weeks, which would involve flying and no support, or a trickier marathon in Harrisburg in 5 weeks with more of a chance for bad weather but I can drive up that morning. Both you can sign up last minute, but I can't keep my taper going indefinitely. This is certainly a harder run than I would normally do 2 weeks out from a marathon, but I don't think it destroyed me... I certainly did not empty myself on the course, but I did run all 18 miles hard. Any thoughts on 2 weeks vs 5 weeks?
Also looking at some data from the race and previous results. 100th place finisher was in 3:21. Last year was horrible weather, but every other year it was around 3:04. 26 runners went under 3hours this year, usually it's around 60. Crunching the data it looks like times were off about 10 minutes for runners at my fitness level.
5k- 18:55 (2018) 10K- 39:04 (2017) Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)
Madison congrats, that is a crazy fast time. Great job! (and JT thanks for posting updates)
Subdood sounds like you made the right decision. Running sick and racing sick are two different animals. Hope you feel better soon.
Finbad that was a great race. 4th place is great and that is a really fast time!
Sling I think you made the right call. Those conditions do not sound conducive to a great time. But you still got a great workout out of it!
For me, I'm pretty well resigning myself to the fact that sub 3 is highly unlikely this go round. And I've totally lost motivation. At this point I'm really ready for the race to be over and not feel like a slave to a training plan. Oh well. Maybe another time and maybe not. I have to keep reminding myself that this hobby doesn't pay the bills. Today was supposed to include 14 @ MP but I'm getting sick and had no energy or motivation so just took it easy.
Madison: Again, congrats on the great race today!
Finbad: Great time and place in the half! It must have been nice to focus on competing and forget about the watch.
Sling: Good idea to bag it today. It is grotesquely hot and humid here today so I am guessing the weather in that part of PA is similar. Not marathon racing weather. As far as 2 or 5 weeks out, I think you should be ok from today's effort to race n 2 weeks time, and you would only need to do a bit of VO2 max or MP work in the next week or so. For the one 5 weeks out you would have to be up to training seriously for another 3 weeks.
Subdood: Good choice to sit it out today if you have a bad cough.
BGS: Sorry to hear you're getting sick and the motivation is low. You've put in consistent great mileage, with a nice MLR and LR each week. Maybe you just need a good cutback week to recharge.
My week: I took Mon and Tues off to try to get over my cold, and fortunately it is pretty well over with now. So I should be good to go Saturday. I will probably do my usual race week mileage this week: Mon off, Tues 8 mi easy, Wed 5-6 mi with 1 mi fast, then Thur and Fri off. Legs still don't feel tapered but that is maybe due to having the cold this week. The weather forecast for Sat morning looks good, in the mid 40s in the morning. Fingers crossed it stays that way.
Weekly SummaryMonday, Oct 01, 2018 thru Sunday, Oct 07, 2018
2:52:16 (2018)
slingrunner - it's a regular story fighting with a weather - that's why I love CIM - almost always a good weather. I heard that Twin City marathon almost always has a great weather too. Cannot advice on anything out of your choices - 2 weeks is too close and 5 weeks marathon looks complicated. maybe some other option? Indianapolis?
JMac - I live in Northern California, SF Bay area - weather is pretty much ideal all year around if you do not run at 2pm. If your start at 6-7am and finish at 10, you can maximum get to feel 70-75 oF, which is not bad. Of course when I run at noon (rarely, only as a part of specific preparation) I do not ignore drinking
madisonrunner - congrats on great result. Cannot imagine running that fast but must be awesome! And, hm.. your preparation schedule looked, hm.., interesting
Subdood - definitely a right choice when you don't feel good.
finbad - wow, 1:17 on a such uneven course! Very impressive! You guys got so fast while I was out.... Congrats!
BigGuySkinny - not sure why you giving up on sub 3 - your training week looks pretty good - do not know the history of your training but I am in much worse shape right now and I am still thinking about sub 3 on Dec 2.
JTReeves - taper week looks good!
Mikey - I saw some very slow running from you. Not good
My week:
Mon - 12.07 @ 9:16
Tue - 10.23 @ 9:06
Wed - off
Thu - 13.35 @ 8:50
Fri - 13.57 @ 8:37
Sat - off
Sun - 23:23 @ 8:24
===============
Total: 72.4 mi
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
BigSkinny- I also don't see a reason for you to give up. I still think you are running your midweek runs too quickly. 15@7:45 is a lot with 12 miles at the same speed the next week. If the weather is great I might run at that speed, but if I was having any difficulty with speedwork, I would just slow down the pace of those runs. I see nothing suggesting that my fitness level is better than yours, and all the data crunching I just did tells me that I had my under 3hrs fairly easily today with decent conditions.
Calbears- Your speed seems to be improving quickly.
Me- While I really would love the idea of running my marathon in 2 weeks, as I'm sick of training, I think I'm going to choose a local one in 5 weeks. The Harrisburg marathon is not too hard, is a bit bigger, 2 hours away, and there is a 3hr pacer. Bucks County marathon is 1 hour the other way, pancake flat, tiny, and would not require a 4:30AM wake up. Both can be signed up for only a few days out, so thinking I might make a last minute decision depending on weather as they both offer advantages. I'm going to take a few extra recovery days, and then hopefully be ready to jump back into my pfitz training schedule toward the end of the week. Today called for 18 w/14 at marathon pace, which is technically pretty much what I did, but I think realistically I ran closer to half marathon pace.
All - thanks for following and the kind words. I'm very happy with setting a PR by 2+ minutes (2:37:22 officially today, breaking my former best of 2:39:31 from 2011). I'll put my (long) race report in another post.
JT - I used to just take acetaminophen before races but pamprin has acetaminophen + a couple of other meds to help prevent cramping so I switched to that. Not sure if it actually does anything but it hasn't caused problems and I get the acetaminophen that way. Good luck this weekend!
SubDood - Probably smart not to run today. The fitness you've gained won't go away quickly and you can go after another one.
Fin - congrats on a fast half!
Sling - 5 weeks probably gives you a better shot, though if you are able to jump right back into training in a few days then the 18 today didn't take a ton out of you then a marathon in 2 weeks would be fine. You could always watch the weather and jump in the race the day before if it looks perfect. Sometimes perfect weather beats a great taper.
BGS - When the motivation flags like this it's probably time just run when you want to at whatever pace you want. If you don't feel like running don't. You've got the mileage already to run a fast time. You may find you get to the marathon feeling much better due to the rest and break and excited to see what happens. Better that than going to the start line having been a slave to a mileage plan but having no confidence.
Cal - nice mileage, you're on your way. And you'll be happy to know that I followed my prep plan before the marathon exactly.
PR! Family Record!
Weather: Mid 50s, cloudy, humid but no rain during the race (it did sprinkle a bit right before the race started). Wind 10-15 mph from the NE. I'd consider the conditions fair. Certainly better than last year (headwind) and probably about the same as 2016 (light rain, 60s, slight tailwind). The wind certainly helped for the last 4 miles but for the first 22 it probably hurt more than it helped or was a wash. Mostly a cross-wind but sometimes directly in your face and sometimes at your back. I dumped water over my head at almost every water station to try to stay cool.
I started at the front and was amazed at how many people went past me in the first mile. I was probably in 20-25th place after mile 1. Last year, when I ran 4.5 minutes slower I was in 4th-8th the whole time. They added a $5k bonus for the first person to get an OTQ so perhaps that improved the depth of the field.
Right from the start I felt okay but not great. The first 2 miles are downhill and I was prepared to be a bit fast for them (i.e. not forcing myself to slow down if I was 5:45 or 5:50). But I was just under 6 for both miles. I ran with a guy named Sam through about mile 10. His goal was 2:35 (finished in 2:36) and he clicked off sub 6:00 miles without issue. Starting at 10 I fell back a bit as the pace was a bit too hot. I was still feeling okay, not great, but starting to worry about cramps. I had already taken 2 endurolytes (at 4 and 7). The Maurten was going down okay but I was starting to feel full.
I just focused on a mile at a time in a very workmanlike fashion, being perfectly fine with running just over 6. At 15 my parents were cheering for me and about 400m later my wife and 8 year old son were out cheering for me. This really picked me up and helped me get to 20. Shortly after 15 I took a hotshot. By 17 I finished off the Maurten bottle and started taking Gatorade at each aid station. I had carried 8 endurolytes with me and I took the last one at around 20. I think I dropped 1 or 2 as well.
At 20 I was at 2:00:12 and knew that I could run about 1.5 minutes slower than 6:00 pace to PR. I still felt okay, not great and focused on getting to 22 on PR pace. Mile 22 is an uphill mile and I focused on hitting 21 and 22 comfortably hard, though not pushing too hard as I felt 6:20 or so would be okay. Mile 23 is flat and 24 and 25 are downhill, and 26 is flat so I knew if I made it to 22 on pace I'd have a good shot at a PR. When I hit 21 and 22 in ~6:10 I was confident in a PR. I maintained pace for mile 23 and then let myself pick it up for the last 3 miles. At this point I was tired and sore but able to push. Mile 26 was my fastest of the day.
After the race my dad was quite happy to pass the family marathon record to the next generation (his PR was 2:38:59). We took a picture with myself, him, and my son as the current, former, and future record holders.
Official Splits:
10K: 37:01 (5:57.5 pace)
Half: 1:18:14 (5:58 pace, 5:59 for this segment)
20: 2:00:12 (6:00.5 pace, 6:05.5 for this segment)
Second Half: 1:19:08 (6:02 pace, positive split by 54s)
Finish: 2:37:22 (6:00 pace, 5:58.5 for this segment, 11th place overall)
I carried 3 Maurten gels as well as caffeine and pamprin and didn't take any of them. Next marathon I now know there's no need for that - I can rely on the course aid stations once I finish my bottle, and I really don't need the pills for a pick me up. I think I felt just okay and not great due to the humidity. I run best when the air is crisp like it was for my 10k time trial a few weeks ago. Overall I'm extremely pleased with how it went.
9 straight years sub 3
6 straight years sub 2:45
RIP Milkman
Madison - what a great race report (thanks for posting publicly). You guys have some fast genes in the family! Pretty cool though that it continued through the generations, and hopefully your son will enjoy it too. Also, amazing pacing, that is some great consistency.
Finbad - I loved how on Strava you didn't even stop your watch, just threw up a 1:17 like it was nothing. Very impressive.
Sling - I think that was the right call. I ran today and felt horrible throughout, can't imagine running a marathon in these humid conditions. I also think 5 weeks is the right call.
JT - Fingers crossed, but it looks like you're getting the total weather gift. It's going to be warm and humid all week, and then the temps and humidity will fall off a cliff for your race. You've had a great cycle, great weather, and your cold is behind you. No excuses not to go out there and get a great time! I would also say, it's a good thing you still don't feel tapered yet. One week out would be too early.
Cal - Do you run recovery runs, or just always double digit? And yes your location now totally explains your water situation.
BGS - You needed a down week a while ago, but it may be too late for you. I still don't understand your training: you need to slow down on the days after big runs, and you also need to shorten them. I would never run 10 miles the day after doing 15 @ 7:30, unless I broke it down into a 6 and 4 mile run. I forgot when your marathon is and when you plan to start your 3 week taper, but I would keep on the conservative side. I like to keep my tapers at 85%/70% for the first 2 weeks of the three week taper, but you need at most 80%/60%.
Me - Hit my all time peak this week in terms of mileage. I had to bail on my Wednesday workout when I felt very nauseous during it, but I think that's because I only ate a salad for lunch. My long run on Sunday was a disaster. I actually intentionally had my long run planned for today in order to stay heat acclimated, as I don't want to lose it in the coming weeks with the potential for warm weather race day. Anyway, I had to death march the final 3 miles. I pretty much know why it happened (failed to eat dinner the night before so only running on breakfast, humidity got to me, and my legs felt totally cooked just 5 miles into the run). Anyway, also developed a tiny fever after the run and lost my appetite, but now 5 hours later I feel fine. Marathon training is a fickle thing: some weeks you feel amazing, and other weeks are complete crap. Can't complain with the mileage though. One more full week of training left.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
JT - health coming back online, you'll start to feel rested early this week then you just need to put up with feeling twitchy then nail the race.
Madison - sounds like a pretty meticulous prep you've got there. Also looks like sensible goals throughout the race. Really cool that your Dad's a proper runner too.
JMac - I promise I wasn't trying to be cool with the race straight into cooldown on Strava, my fingers were too cold to unzip the waistband and get my watch out. Decent looking week, no harm in a few shaky miles once the body runs out of fuel as long as it's not too much, you're not trying to loose weight are you? Just asking since you had two underfueled runs, I'd say that a month out from the race is no time to be dieting.
Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k
Finbad - Definitely not trying to lose weight, just trying to maintain a healthy diet. I find it a bit hard with all of these miles to keep up with the nutritional intake unless I start eating crap. I do try to run my long runs on minimal fuel to teach my body to use fat, but I may have actually bonked on that run, or ran pretty close to the edge.
Me - Well, I've joined the sick express! Didn't think it was possible, but somehow colds are contagious on this board. Mine is pretty light at this point, just stuffed up and maybe a baby cough. Nothing that will derail my training, but just found it really funny when I woke up with one given all the sickness that's going around.
Madison: Nice race report. thanks for that. You had great execution of your plan. Looks like being a great runner is in your genes! How much longer until your son is faster than you? Any thoughts on your next race and/or goal?
Cal: Great week; pretty impressive to get 72 miles off of just 5 days of singles! The weight must be dropping off by now.
JMac: Great looking week; I would say that Wed workout was still huge even if you cut one rep a bit short. Sorry to hear you got the cold; was that just from peer pressure? Seriously though, you have enough time to be rid of it before your race. Better now than later.
Mmmm Bop
Finbad - Excellent result and you’re becoming a pro at racing. It makes sense to not worry about time/splits if you’ve got a shot at top 3 or winning!
Sling - 2 Vs 5....that was a big workout for 2 weeks out so I’d wait and see how you feel next week, plus you’ll get a better idea of the weather conditions.
SubDood - Wise move and get well soon!
BGS - Your training has looked pretty good on paper with consistent 70+ mile weeks so I wouldn’t be pessimistic....but make sure you TAPER!
JT - You’ve had a great cycle and looking forward to seeing how you do and pleased the cold has cleared up and weather looking good! I watched the Chicago marathon on nbc live stream and Mo was amazing! I had a feeling he’d do well after his performance at the Great North Run last month andlooked like he was out for a Sunday morning jog he was so relaxed! Gary Lough is a great coach and I think he’ll improve further next year.
Madison - Great RR and big congrats on a super fast time! I am also the fastest marathoner in my family. 😃
JMac - Sorry to hear about the cold but at least it’s now and not the week before NYC! Colds seem to be quite common going into taper...maybe because the immune system is low after months of intense training?
Cal - Have you not heard of the 10% rule when building up mileage? 😜 I see you snuck in some sub 8min/miles in that long run! Good to hear that you’re still hoping for Sub 3 and with your previous racing history I wouldn’t bet against it! Btw, did you watch the MMA fight in Las Vegas between Conor McGregor and Khabib Nurmagomedov? That was some brawl post fight!!!
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Question for the group:
I have a HM planned this Sunday, which I plan at running at MP. I've done this in other build ups. I like having the support on the course, including Gatorade and water, so that I can practice my planned fueling strategy for the marathon. I also like doing this workout in a race, since it can be pretty difficult to sustain 13 miles by yourself.
Anyway, I usually do these workouts by running something like 4 miles to warm up and slightly tire out my legs. This is similar to all of my workouts, where I don't just do 3x2 at LT pace, but rather 8 mile warmup before doing 3x2 at LT pace. Obviously 17 with 13 @ MP is harder than just 13 @ MP. However, there's a complication: NYRR corrals close 10 minutes before the race starts, which really means I need to finish my warm up 15 minutes before the race starts to get into the corral in time. Does this defeat the purpose of "tiring out" my legs given I get a 15 minute break, or does it not really matter in this context?
The alternative is just to run the 4 miles after the race as a cool down, but even that is compromised because you need to walk through the finish chute and find a new area to run, which will give you a 10 minute break in and of itself.
So the question is, what's the best choice here:
A) 4 miles before the race, rest 15 minutes in the corrals, then run 13.1 @ MP
B) Run 13.1 @ MP, take a 10 minute break as you walk through the finish chute etc., then complete 4 miles
C) It doesn't matter
Madison- Damn, that's sick. Sounds like a perfectly paced marathon and mile 26 being your fastest. Congrats on the family speed honors. What kind of caffeine pills were you carrying? I want to try caffeine for my next marathon, but gels don't work, and I have trouble eating later in a marathon, so a pill sounds ideal. How does your body feel now?
JMac- Feel better soon! Sorry if you caught my cold... I've been trying to give it away for 10 days now.
Me- Got in a 5 mile walk/ turtle paced run today. About 15 minute mile starting out, and got down to about 10 by end. My race was essentially 18 miles at above marathon pace, so I'm thinking no speed work until midnext week and design my own running schedule for the next 2 weeks, since pfitz 18/70 5 weeks out is way too much for me to handle right now, but his 5 weeks between marathon schedule seems too easy for me.
JMac2- I would vote for 4 miles beforehand. You'll have enough time to recover your breathing, but your legs will still feel it. Personally running another 4 miles after a hard effort (especially with a break in between) is like torture for me.
JMac - my vote is for 13.1 @HMP or at least something faster than MP. Btw, I do recovery runs - that's what I call when I run @9:20 pace - how else you can call it?
slingrunner - just run man, at any pace you feel comfortable. At least this week you should not be worried about pace. Come on. What do you want? Constant improvement? It's not real. Just run.
JTReeves - yes, the weight is coming down a little bit - maybe 4-5 pounds by now.
Mikkey - what 10% rule? You mean going from 55 to 72 is a big deal? But, obviously my "10% rule" is based on how legs/body feel - I felt like dead on Tue and that's why I had day off on Wed. If I felt good on Tue, I would run on Wed, etc. Yes, I am thinking about sub 3 - I made it in similar situation last year, maybe I will do the same this year? Will see. I definitely didn't watch MMA fight - I don't watch wild "animals" in human bodies. But I read about what happened. Khabib is formally Russian, but he was born at Dagestan (also part of Russia of course) which has Chechen Republic as its neighbor - and you know what Chechen is.