Forums >Racing>2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run.
RIP Milkman
Interesting approach to tapering. How did you like a full 3 week taper like Pfitz recommends vs your usual 1-2 weeks?
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Wow, I was just trying to make the workout more difficult, not run myself into the ground with 17 days to go! On a serious note, it's amazing how a workout like that is much harder than running the 7 upfront and then doing the 4x2T. I completely failed at a similar workout recently where I went 6E + 2T + 6E + 2T, even though I had been successful with 8E + 4x2T. No idea why letting the T soak right in as you put it just destroys you.
Ya, I hear that. I simply haven't been strong enough to even try a proper session like that this cycle. Being able to hold T pace after 16 or 18 miles is so hard, but a massive mental boost if you survive. It teaches running on/through tired legs like nothing else.
My cycle has been fairly average, so I'm going to do ~12M, with something like 4x5k/800m(M/E) this weekend as the last long workout and I might put a faster km or 2 on the end if I'm feeling good. I'll be doing the M stuff at 6:27ish, but no way I'm able to hold that for a full right now as I feel like I have to break it up due to lingering PF and just not being able to do enough hard work yet.
Nice math by JT, and his point about 4x2 makes the most sense!
5k: 17:32 (11/18) -- 10k: 38:47 (07/17) -- 10m: 60:23 (08/17) -- 1/2: 1:22:32 (11/17) -- full: 2:49:26 (04/17)
2020 Goals: Assault on 2:40! Next up: Toledo (Apr 26)
Kram - I remember when I first was lurking on this thread how I used to admire your absurd Daniels workouts on the TM. I think you were one of the main people who convinced me to use him.
Me - Workout went well yesterday. On my second 2 mile interval, I almost vomited but it's because I took the first mile way too fast (5:42 vs. planned 5:55). After that, I was able to settle in for more 5:55-6:00 paced reps and held down the impending throw up all over Central Park. Weather - just to make you jealous, I actually found it was almost TOO cold last night, as my lungs were not used to doing reps in 45 degree weather even though that's traditionally perfect temps. Anyway, now it's on to the taper as planned. One more 15 mile workout with 3x2 in it Sunday, but then nothing longer than 90 minutes in the final 2 weeks.
JMac: Great workout yesterday! Though based on your 10 mile race your T pace should be more like 5:50, so I guess you were sandbagging a bit
Assuming favorable weather, I am predicting sub 2:46 for you at NYC, with a good chance at sub 2:45.
Subdood: How are you feeling? Ready to rock this weekend?
I am now hernia-free as of this morning. Won't be running for a while but hopefully I can start back in a week or so. Fingers crossed that not having the hernias will cut 20-30 minutes off my marathon time
2:52:16 (2018)
Awesome workout JMAC. Agree with JT and thinking this indicates a potential of something in the mid 2:40's. As for the temps think I'll be freezing once it actually dips into the upper 60's here!
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
JT - My 10 mile pace was 5:51, which means my T pace is actually slower than that pace. It's defined by Daniels as the pace you could run for 60 minutes, so it would to be slower than my 10 mile pace. I did sandbag the last mile for a bit but picked it up strong to finish 6:05.
Weather - I forgot that you actually need to adjust to cold just like you do for hot weather. Not in the same way exactly, but running in the 40's when you've been running in 70's and humid can be a real shock (or 90 and humid for you!)
JMac - The results of the taper were good but during the taper and at the start of the marathon I never felt that rested, raring to go feeling. And the 2 mile at MP a few days before the marathon felt way harder than expected. But the results were excellent and that's the important thing.
Good luck tomorrow Subdood!
My 2 miles at MP a few days ago also felt pretty hard. So this gives me a glimmer of hope. Then again, I still haven’t gotten completely over this cold. I plan to run tomorrow, but I don’t feel ready to “rock it,” to answer JT’s question.
SubDood- How did it go? Hope you made your goal!
Finished up a 69 mile week here. Two more good experiments with caffeine and upped today's total to 300mg. For today's 20 miler I took 200mg at the beginning, and 50 twice during. Stomach felt slightly off, but all 3 runs with it have been very solid, and I felt really fresh at the end despite the last 10 miles having headwinds that at times were as bad as the Philly marathon last year. Next experiment is a 10K next weekend. I'm considering taking 300mg 30 minutes before the start and hoping to crush my PR if all goes well.
Pfitz taper for Harrisburg starts now, but I think I'm going to add a few miles this week because of my previous tapering for Steamtown.
5k- 18:55 (2018) 10K- 39:04 (2017) Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)
Subdood I hope today went/is going well. Looking forward to hearing how it was!
JT sounds like the surgery went well. Hope you are recovering well.
Kram those sound like brutal workouts. I'm not familiar with Daniels plans but will look into them.
JMac you sound like you are ready to go. Look forward to seeing how your race goes!
Sling sounds like a strong week! Interesting to hear how the caffeine affects you. I drink way too much coffee so don't notice the effects. I suck at fueling so need to try to work on that. I normally have 2 glasses of water and 2 cups of coffee to fuel my runs.
My week-I've been feeling burned out so abandoned the plan and just ran what I felt like. Cooler weather and not following a plan helped. I've got some nagging discomfort in my left hamstring/glute but going into a 3 week taper so hope it resolves itself.
Madison - It’s so weird, I feel like we all overthink tapers. Pfitz drops more than usual (80% then 60%) and yet you felt more tired before the race, but then PR’d!
Sling - glad you’re figuring out the caffeine. It can definitely upset your stomach if you take too much, so be careful.
Subdood - looking forward to the RR
BGS - I imagine in 2 weeks you’re gonna feel a lot better about your running when you’re into the taper.
Me - Today’s workout was much easier than Thursday’s, which is good. I guess running only a 2 mile warm up vs a 7 mile warm up really can make the difference. This workout also was part of the traditional taper, so it was supposed to be easier. Now I’ll start coming down on easy runs along with these quality days. One more relatively challenging workout on Thursday. Looking at about 50 miles this upcoming week.
Weekly SummaryMonday, Oct 15, 2018 thru Sunday, Oct 21, 2018
Mankato Marathon Race Report
Short Version: 3:15:59, 2nd AG in 50-59 (really 3rd, but ... I’ll explain below).
Longer version (with all kinds of positive spin):
Sub-3 wasn’t in the cards today, not even close. I’m still getting over a cold that has lingered for 3 weeks, and my 5-week mega-taper didn’t help things. I wasn’t feeling great before the race, and I might’ve skipped it completely, except that I had 2 friends (Matt and Rob) that decided to run it, at least partly because I was running it. They are both much faster than me.
Saturday: I picked up my bib/packet at the expo and stayed to listen to Dick Beardsley talk at the expo (he’s the guy from Minnesota that lost to Salazar in the ‘82 Boston Marathon by 1.6 seconds). Really great talk. Very emotional. This guy has been through some devastating life events, yet he is the nicest, most positive person you could ever meet. I could go on.
Anyhow, I had a headache, cough, sore throat ... the litany of excuses for my poor performance is voluminous. The forecast called for 29 degrees at the start, with strong winds from the south 15-18 mph.
Sunday: It WAS 29 F, and the winds felt stronger than 18 mph. But I was here, and I had to at least give it a shot. Matt’s plan was to run it as a workout, figuring he could pace me for 15 or 16 miles, then drop out and cool-down for a few more miles and meet us at the finish. Rob was shooting for 2:44 or thereabouts, so he left us behind immediately.
My plan was to start around 7:30 pace and speed up to 6:50 or so by mile 3. We were roughly on pace (6:53 avg) through mile 12 when I told Matt I needed to drop out. I was very winded and breathing heavily, much more so than normal for me at this pace. I couldn’t have gone another mile at that pace. I slowed and hit the half marathon point at 1:31. I started walking and took an Endurolyte capsule, and I washed it down with Perpetuem. I started jogging, looking for the spot where I would make my graceful exit. Between miles 13 and 14, there are a few spots where you could stop and walk 2-3 miles to the finish. But I don’t know the area well enough to try this, so I plodded on a bit further. At mile 15, I saw Matt, who had dropped at the aid station. He gave me a hearty cheer and I continued. From mile 14-18, there was a headwind of at least 18 mph, and I struggled. But I thought that I would have a good place to drop out somewhere between miles 17 and 18. As I approached, the road had some volunteers and spectators standing there. I couldn’t wait to hand them my bib and be done. But when I got there, a very small boy looked up and yelled, “You can do it! You’ve got this!” I really couldn’t bring myself to quit right there and then in front of this kid. So I kept going. I still thought I might drop out at mile 22. But when I got there, the course doubles back so you can see oncoming runners at their 25 mile point. Rob was right there at the same time, and I yelled out to him. He waved, but he looked almost as tired as I felt. Something about seeing him there made it hard for me to quit yet again. So now, I finally resigned myself to finishing the race. I didn’t feel horrible; I had eased back on the pace, was breathing normally, and legs weren’t cramping, which is really remarkable to me at this point, since I had been trying to figure out my exit strategy for the last 10 miles.
I walked at the aid station at mile 24, took a gel, and drank a full cup of water. If I couldn’t meet my time goal, I wanted to finish looking strong for once. As I drank the water, the 2nd place female and the 3:15 pacer both ran by. I quickly got going and made an effort to stick with them, but they both seemed to accelerate steadily away from me.
I finished in 3:15:59. Rob finished with a disappointing (for him) 2:50x, although it was fast enough for 3rd Overall. And since he received an award in the overall category, and they don’t allow “double-dipping,” my 3rd AG became a 2nd AG Medal.
After lunch, we walked to the finish area for the awards presentation. Dick Beardsley was there again to present us with our respective awards, as well as pose for pictures with us. I went up and chatted with him before the awards ceremony, and he seemed really eager and excited to talk. He joked that he had run Grandma’s in 2:09 back in his prime, AND he ran the Mankato HALF marathon today in 2:09!
I’m glad I ran today, and I’m actually really happy with how things turned out. My only regret was that I could’ve tried harder to keep up with the 3:15 pacer.
There is an indoor marathon on a HS gym track in November about 30 minutes from my home. It’s a 200m track, so it would be about 210 laps. We’ll see how that sounds in a couple weeks.
Crazy race report. First, I cannot believe you still have your cold. Have you gone to the doctor? 3 weeks doens’t seem normal and you may want to make sure you don’t have something else (just a thought).
Second, way to stick it out. There’s something to be said about learning to work your way through what you were suffering and you will come out stronger because of it. The fact that you are so positive says a lot about your mental state. Great work.
** Indy 2018: w16/16 **M 00 59 44 7.01 T 01 15 00 10 tm w/ 2wu + 4x1.5@6:00 + 2cd, 0.5%, rec: 90s staticW 01 10 57 8.57 Th 01 28 06 10.61 F 01 02 09 7.61 S 01 31 46 12.25 tm w/ 2wu + 2x5k/800m@(6:27/8:27) + cd, 0.5%, felt rubbish, bloated as too much pasta night before!S 01 58 51 14.98 ==== 71.03
Solid week for me. My Thursday evening bravado was shown up on Sat as I had a large dinner on Friday night that left me pretty bloated come morning time. This meant that while my legs felt ok, my HR was up instantly, so I cut this short. I ran a MLR today to make up for it somewhat and now time to taper. Given my rubbish cycle (though, I'm solidly set up to get after it for the spring), this is hardly needed, so I'll just drop slightly this week with a sharper taper on race-week.
JMac: You are very much ready. If it wasn't NYC, I'd say a good day could have you work towards 2:45. Fingers crossed and you'll have a few minutes to spare under 2:50. For talentless folk like us, JD stuff works, if you survive!
BGS: Those workouts are not that bad. They are supposed to be at MP. Much easier in principle than a solid block, hence why I've adapted them. The 4x5k plus a little I-pace on the end is a staple Canova long run workout for what it's worth. Nothing wrong with just running by feel from here until raceday. Have a couple of days with a little quality just to keep things ticking over and you'll be fine. Lots to build on for next time around.
sling: I pity you digestive system, that would be a huge amount of caffeine for me!
JT: Ouch... and I think you meant damaged hernia free! Hope recovery goes to plan and you can get moving around soon.
Loved the way Bekele just stepped off at the 40k mark/his hotel with a 2:07 in the bag in Amsterdam this morn.