Forums >Racing>2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run.
RIP Milkman
I mean at this point I'm just trolling you Cal by pointing out anytime someone uses speed and improves. Mainly because just running easy mileage would make me quit marathon running immediately as I cannot imagine anything more boring.
Also I think age grading is skewed towards older people for a lot of reasons. Your 2:48 is probably worth about 2:35 for me. I have a long way to go, but now I have a fun goal to go after over the next 18 months
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Did you hear word "meditation"? Do you have family, kids? How much of your free time belongs to you? Though I have "similar" to your problem with quitting marathon - too much speed makes me quit training too - but for different reason
And I am OK with trolling - do it all the time to my wife
Ha... You think it's skewed? Ok... How many people of your age do you think ran 2:46? And now, how many people of 50 yo do you think ran 2:48? In my pretty populated area I can name them personally So, you think it's still skewed?
Just checked Age Graded calculators - 2:48:35 at 50yo is 2:31:04 at your age. So, yes, train harder That actually means, though you are faster than me in absolute numbers, AG time gives me such a leverage in trolling you young guns - even if you don't think so
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
It's skewed in the sense that it's not actually about physical ability but rather for the reasons you stated: there aren't a lot of guys running those times. Obviously there will be a huge pool of people running 2:46 at my age.
Guys who are 50 have a much more difficult time getting out there to train for 70+ MPW for many reasons: family, health, motivation when your times are declining, etc. There's no question on that. It's much easier for me as a 31 year old male with no children to train. However, for exactly those reasons, the AG times are skewed. Put another way, the difference between a 31 year old and 48 year old physically is not 2:48 vs 2:31 in your calculation. It's closer to 2:35 as I stated. The extra 4 minutes are those extraneous reasons that lead to a lower pool of people willing to train for world record times.
Look, I love that the AG times are going to give me a reason to keep running as I get older. But they're not exactly perfect science, and they're certainly not perfect science for guys like us who got started later in life in a distance that specifically benefits older groups. I don't think anyone who is 50 can look at their AG time of 2:31 and think "I could have run that when I was younger." Additionally, I bet you that you will find running a 2:55 much easier at 55 than you found running a 2:48 at 50.
Now that I've said all of this, I expect to incur the wrath of Mikkey and Piwi as well, although Cal called me out on my slow time compared to him so I had to get this out there
I don't think anyone who is 50 can look at their AG time of 2:31 and think "I could have run that when I was younger."
Getting older sucks... But one thing is advantageous to it is to know to never put your thoughts into some other person head - that's not how it works But seriously man - that is exactly what I think when I look at 2:31 and thinking about me being 30 yo. It hurts actually when I think about it. But it hurts about quite a few things I did and didn't when I was in my 20s and 30s.
Additionally, I bet you that you will find running a 2:55 much easier at 55 than you found running a 2:48 at 50.
My god JMac... This is so funny to hear from 31 yo. But just for a record - it was much harder for me to run 2:58 at 48 yo than 2:48 at 50. Does it prove anything?
It just so interesting to hear that the main reason for not so many 50 yo people running is family and kids. Though many will argue with that because for many if not for the most kids come in their 30s and by their 50s kids are out in the college (not my case - I have 4 yo in the house and so happy with that fact) and people suddenly have too much spare time. Don't you think it's strange those 50 yo don't go and train and run? Man... Your views will change with years but I am not telling you that - I found a hard way that younger guys do not like hear all that "old farts" stuff - they think their life is unique and will be different. And that's exactly what I thought when I was their age too. That's why I do not blame them...
powered by plants
Good discussion here. Just to be clear, regarding my training and it's change over the past year or so. I would never say that I was purely a mileage junkie that eschewed every form of workout. I certainly did workouts. Like Cal said, my good race wasn't solely because I started doing workouts, but because I already had thousands of miles in my legs from the past years. I'm still going to run over 4000 miles this year which is an all-time high for a calendar year.
What changed? 1. Every long run included quality sections usually late on. 2 I did strides at least once a week. 3. Every Tuesday or Wednesday was a workout (fartlek, tempo, long interval). I didn't step on the track once. I only did 400s twice; once in the middle of a 20 miler, once at the end.
I still think that MOST runners would benefit from adding more mileage before adding quality. Remember folks, I was posting on RWOL in 2007 when I followed Pfitz to run 2:58. I was running those crazy long tempos, those MP runs, those intervals. I wish I had just started pounding out 90 mile weeks then, I'd have run 2:54 years ago.
Also, learning to fuel on the run during the marathon was the biggest factor. I can't imagine running another marathon without a bottle for the middle 12 miles. I ran Boston this year not eating or drinking anything but the rain. Crazy to imagine doing that again.
5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)
*downhill AF
Man... Your views will change with years but I am not telling you that - I found a hard way that younger guys do not like hear all that "old farts" stuff - they think their life is unique and will be different. And that's exactly what I thought when I was their age too. That's why I do not blame them...
remember saying "when I'm 40..." It feels like yesterday. Keep in mind, at 31, his life hasn't started to speed by the way it does for us now.
Kram- what's your PF therapy look like? I'm doing heel dips, rolling calfs, hockey ball under the heel and rolling foot on a frozen water bottle a couple of times daily and using comfy shoes (nb 1800) for easy runs. I find I still have a few spare minutes each day so happy to incorporate anything else that might help
Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k
Don't you think it's strange those 50 yo don't go and train and run? Man... Your views will change with years but I am not telling you that - I found a hard way that younger guys do not like hear all that "old farts" stuff - they think their life is unique and will be different. And that's exactly what I thought when I was their age too. That's why I do not blame them...
I didn't fully understand this, but in no way shape or form did I say anything about somehow my life will be different. If anything, I doubt that I will be running anything close to what you guys are running. I know you don't like to hear all the good mopey stuff or whatever, but the work that I've seen from Mikkey and Piwi over the last 2 years since I joined RWOL has inspired me more than anything some 25 year old brags about over on LRC.
I want to make this clear in no way was this a "young guy vs old guy discussion," it just came about because you specifically called me out by using an Age Graded time to claim that I need to run a 2:31 in order to be "even" with you, even if it was in jest.
Finbad - I forgot to mention to you, hangover runs are my favorite. Never raced before, but nothing cures a hangover faster for me than running and sweating it out. Of course I don't think that when I start the run, but it always works out.
Hey finbad, I tore my PF in March 2017. I got custom orthotics. Wore them 100% of the time for the first 6 months back. Now just for easy runs. I know a lot of runners don't want them, but they helped with my PF and Achilles also.
but the work that I've seen from Mikkey and Piwi over the last 2 years since I joined RWOL has inspired me more than anything some 25 year old brags about over on LRC.
Oh my.... I understand Mikkey's workouts, but Piwi's workouts inspired you? I must be missed something - in my years at RWOL Piwi was always a low mileage guy - I think he was doing fishing and surfing most of the time . Though, somehow he managed to get sub 3 from the first attempt and then he ran perfect 2:54 race again. Do not remember him running more than 70 miles regularly - how that mileage can be impressive? Though, it might be a sweet spot for him - I know some guys getting injured right after they start running a lot and they show much better results with running 50-60 miles. Obviously, they could be faster marathoners if they run higher mileage but something in their bodies doesn't allow to run beyond 70 mark.
I'll let Piwi talk for himself when he sees this, but in general no, he's not a high mileage guy because he gets injured when he gets too high up there. What inspires me about him is that he can go 4 weeks without running, but get right back into running 50 MPW and throw up a sub 1:30 half at the end of one of those weeks in a training run. He squeezes a lot of talent out of his body for the work he does.
Weather - As a fellow Daniels guy, I was wondering how you structure your 85 mile weeks in a 2Q plan. It's a little hard for me to discern from your weeklies, but if I'm reading it correctly, you do a lot of doubles and don't necessarily push your easy mileage above 10 miles in a single run. Is that correct? I'm just trying to fathom how I get to 85 mile in a week when I only have 37 miles in my 2 quality days. The thought of doubles doesn't really appeal to me, but I can't imagine running 12-14 miles in easy runs would lead to a successful or injury-free cycle. Seems like capping it around 10 makes the most sense.
Yo watup
Age grading is based on percentage of the worlds best in your age group right ? Trouble is most East africans give up running by 40 and so the world best time for older age groups is weaker compared to the open age group. Anyway thats how I see it.
However getting older is tough as you lose muscle mass and get injured more and cant cope with the same training loads.
I sometimes struggle to get up out of the couch as my back is so sore. I dont feel like an athlete
I did 18 week programs for my 2 marathons averaging about 60 mpw for the first and 67mpw for the 2nd. I was struggling beyond that mentally and physically to cope. Im glad Jmac was inspired by the results and I am also inspired by his improvement and dedicated training.
Im also inspired by Cal and his toughness to handle mileage and run sensibly and smash out sub 3s after 50.
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Mmmm Bop
This makes me laugh...you are in your prime so you think AG% is a joke. I started running at 42 and ran a 2:51 when I was 50yo. Do I think I could’ve run a 2:30/35 marathon if I’d started running 40 years ago. Fuck yeah and why would I not think that? You need to start showing a bit of respect to your elders. 😀
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Thanks - The Steve, I also don't want them but will definitely look into it if this persists.