2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run. (Read 755 times)

Swim5599


    Great races by Nimmals and Swim, and of course Cal.

     

    CIM - The more I learn about the course, the more I don't think it's as easy as people think it is. Might have to reconsider and run Houston next winter instead. How would you guys compare it to other "hilly" courses like NY or Boston? I would imagine it's easier than those two, but still harder than a completely flat course, even though people see "net downhill" and think it's somehow an easy course.

     

    Fin - That sucks, sorry to hear about your foot. You are in such great shape, I wouldn't worry about 2 weeks off.

     

    Weather - Tough conditions but good race. Boston is going to have perfect weather so I expect big things from you there 

     

    Me - 45 miles of all easy running, slowly getting back into the swing of things.

    I would not categorize it as easy.  It feels a lot like Boston.  The difference is the weather.  That and it flattened out once you get into the city which makes for a super get able finish.  I guess Boston does also but I was dead In the water at that point during both Boston’s.  I basically floated through the last 10 miles yesterday.  Great race though.  The Chicago course is much easier.

    HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

    Andres1045


      Great job CIM runners!

       

      Cal - you're a beast. I mean I know that you're awesome at marathons, but it's still hard to imagine starting from near zero in August and pulling that off. It'll be fun to see what you do at CIM next year on not-zero training for the year.

       

      Weather - Fantastic race! Just like your turkey trot, I think with decent weather, you'd blow even that new PR out of the water.

      Upcoming races:  Houston HM (January 2019) | A Spring 2019 Marathon (Brighton?)

      Andres1045


        Might have to reconsider and run Houston next winter instead. 

         

        I find Houston to be a great marathon. There are a few spots that aren't fantastic (maybe a combined 3 miles) as far as scenery goes. But I think every course I've run has that to some degree, with generally fewer bad spots for the big ones. Another complaint is that for the faster runners, parts of the last 8 miles or so can be empty re: spectators since they wait until the slower runners start to come by.  (the half has none of the boring parts, but still has few spectators in the last few miles, even though those streets fill up at the end of the race).

         

        As far as weather goes, I feel like it's good somewhere in the 4 out of 5 year range. Two years ago it sucked, but the year before and the year after that one it was spectacular.  2014 and 2015 were fine. Nothing like NYC this year, but not much of a factor.

         

        Logistics are top notch.  Easy to get up to the front. They stage you in the convention area before hand, and you also get funneled in there after, where they have tons of real food and drinks. If you're coming from out of town, it's super easy to find a hotel that you can walk from.

         

        Having said all that, there is a group of guys that I run with here in Houston that just finished CIM for the second year in a row. They find it to be a faster course than Houston, and more consistent weather.

        Upcoming races:  Houston HM (January 2019) | A Spring 2019 Marathon (Brighton?)

        weatherboy80


          Thanks Andres!  My turkey trot 5K weather (around 60) was about as good as we get here at least so all things considered thinking it was a decent marker about 9-10 days out.  Having said that thinking I was close to something in the low 1:16Tight lippedx range given some of my workouts going in.

          5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)


          Cat Disliker

            Great races by Nimmals and Swim, and of course Cal.

             

            CIM - The more I learn about the course, the more I don't think it's as easy as people think it is. Might have to reconsider and run Houston next winter instead. How would you guys compare it to other "hilly" courses like NY or Boston? I would imagine it's easier than those two, but still harder than a completely flat course, even though people see "net downhill" and think it's somehow an easy course.

             

             

            I'd rather run CIM than Chicago. The rolling hills breaks up the downhill. The only truely flat part is from 21 to the finish. I also think the weather is more commonly better for race day than New York, Boston, Grandmas, or Chicago. Either I was better prepared for CIM both times, or Chicago just sucked overall but CIM has seemed easier except for the last 2 miles.

            1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

            5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

            10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

            Half: 1:34:26 (2016)

            Marathon 3:13:20 (2016)

             

            2018 Goal: Get into the 4/20/20 marathon

              Swim - congrats on the great race and definitely congrats on a PR - well done and no doubt earned. I actually think you are capable of faster times but every successful marathon adds a confidence, so, with more confidence you will get there no doubt.

               

              Weatherboy - congrats on the great race and PR too - those times are unimaginable for me, I am jealous for sure, so, will try to apply AG graded more to feel a little bit better Smile Congrats again!

               

              Slammin - you are a monster man, you still continue to PR, even on an unknown course like CIM, which I continue to insist is not as simple as many people think. Congrats!

               

              finbad - yes, 2-3 weeks should hopefully get you back on track - it's no fun to feel injured while training. Bike can be a reasonable replacement for the "time off", especially for quads. Hope you get healthy after giving your bones some rest.

               

              Piwi, JMac, Andres, others - thanks guys for the kind words. That was an interesting experience - interesting in a sense that I have never had such a low HR for the race - 3-4 beats lower than my best races and therefore in general I felt better for the most of the part of the race, but saying that I should also say that I would not probably be able to raise the HR higher because of the legs, mostly hamstrings - they didn't feel that bouncy or rested. Seriously, up until mile 17-18, I was absolutely sure that I make another sub 3, miles 16-17 I ran at 6:47 pace which was great and and it was not because I put more efforts into it - it felt natural. But starting from mile 18 I could not get my pace under 6:50, it was always 4-5 seconds slower. At mile 22 I saw my average pace get to 6:52 mark and it was time give it all, just like it was last year - mile 23 I ran at 6:43 and I was done - my hamstrings became so tight that another fast mile would probably tear them apart, I felt I run on legs that cannot flex any more - just like running on crutches - I managed to run another 7:01 mile with a full effort and still was on the pace for 3 hours at 40K mark, but I knew there is no way I could run the rest of the distance at sub 6:50 pace. I still felt good aerobically, my pulse was great but my legs felt different. As soon as I realize no sub-3 race fact, I just started to run at a comfortable pace, which still didn't feel comfortable, but at least I knew I will not walk the rest of the race.

               

              All in all, I think I will agree with JMac - I will definitely be doing more intense work for the next marathon - and I would do that for this also, but I just didn't have enough time for that - usually it's a minimum 6 weeks of running for me to build some base and then it was already past mid October and my stake was more on mileage than on speed work - I will try not to have 0 miles months next year, even 100 will do it. And one more thing - I will try to never run any training races that close to a race date - I am pretty confident my 10K race the week before was a huge mistake - I felt hamstring tightness on Thursday when I did 2 miles at MP test - first mile was perfect and the second mile was absolutely terrible. I would certainly be better off without that 10K - I am pretty sure about that - 2 weeks is the latest time for any race - at least for me.

               

              One more note and that one is about the course - it's actually mentally hard to see and run uphills and downhills for 21 miles and those uphills and downhills are not short - they might be 0.3-0.5 miles long - especially hard they are when you are not ideally prepared - I am pretty sure for runners who are ready they are pretty insignificant, especially if you know what to expect and ran that course before.

               

              Yes, and I ran for maybe 0.3-0.4 miles with darkwave from sub 3:20 thread (I guess we should switch threads now Smile ) - she passed me somewhere around miles 8-9 - it's so cool to see a runner who looks and runs well prepared, she looked so strong and you just felt there is enough in her tank to go up to the end. And that is what happened! Congrats!

               

              Brewing Runner - I have exactly the same opinion about Chicago and CIM - I will take CIM 100 times out of 100 times. Chicago is amazing in a sense of logistics - it is so easy to get into the race the race that big. And I loved the first part of the course, but the second just killed me mentally - it's a desert, concrete desert, absolutely mind killing and in a warm weather it's just unbearable. I still PR-ed there, but I will try to never go back again Smile CIM is not too entertaining either, but the weather is almost always good and the ups and downs make you forget about boredom to some degree - it's a battle with those uphills and downhills almost all the way to mile 21. Maybe not a huge battle but still takes your mind and makes you do some thinking and observing more about how your doing/pacing.

              mt79


                Swim: Way to tough it out and earn a PR.  You are ready to join the ambitious sub 2:40 goal racers on this thread.

                 

                Cal: Congrats on a very even race and near sub3 with limited training.  You were really close.  I think if you didn't race a 10k, you would have made it.     

                 

                Nimmals: Awesome time and you PRed even with a rough 2nd half!  Are you running Boston?

                 

                Weatherboy - According to my weather app, when your race started, it was 88% humidity.   

                 

                finbad - I hope you heal up quickly!

                 

                I didn't post last 2 weeks.  My goals were 69+ and 70+, 13 and 14 mile long runs, 1 quality workout each week.  All done.  Goal for the current week is 71+, 15 mile long run, and 1 quality workout.

                 

                 

                  Time Miles Average Pace Notes
                18-Nov 1:01:20 7.03 0:08:43  
                19-Nov 1:53:50 13.14 0:08:40  
                20-Nov 1:26:39 10.32 0:08:24  
                21-Nov 0:58:47 6.39 0:09:12  
                22-Nov 1:20:08 10.52 0:07:37 5K @ 19:22 (6:14/mile)
                23-Nov 1:38:07 11.45 0:08:34  
                24-Nov 1:31:34 10.15 0:09:01  
                  9:50:25 69.01 0:08:33  
                         
                25-Nov 2:00:29 14.05 0:08:35  
                26-Nov 1:24:17 10.03 0:08:24  
                27-Nov 1:06:06 9.09 0:07:16 4 X 1200 @ 6:00/mile
                28-Nov 1:18:44 9.17 0:08:35  
                29-Nov 1:22:24 9.29 0:08:52  
                30-Nov 1:21:13 9.58 0:08:28  
                1-Dec 1:16:18 9.04 0:08:26  
                  9:49:32 70.26 0:08:23  

                 

                For the 1st time ever, I am not injured after running for awhile.  14/13/12 weeks ago I ran 15, 24, 32 miles respectively getting back on my feet from surgery.  The last 11 weeks are 55+.  This is the highest mileage I've ever run by a lot.  My left knee has been sore sometimes and my quads are always tired, but otherwise, I have no complaints.   I can't find a 5k/10k to run here in late December or early January, so I'll just time trial a 5k or a 10k on the local track on Dec 22.  I would like to run 18:40/38:45.  Then it will be a 5k in late January and a 1/2 marathon Feb 10.  I'm still contemplating a marathon in April/May, but that's getting ahead of things.  Just typing the m-word causes me to get injured.   

                 

                I've been doing 1200 meter repeats the last few weeks to get comfortable running faster, but I want to try a threshold run this week.  How far do you guys run for threshold workouts?  Is 6 miles reasonable?  It looks like threshold pace is slightly faster than 1/2 marathon race pace, so I would think 6 miles would be pretty easy.   

                  MT79 I would start with a 4 mile threshold/tempo run at half marathon pace. 6 miles is a tough workout if you havent been doing them.

                   

                  Cal man you were close. Looks like your cardio was fine but the legs just gave out. Darkwave got a sub 3 ? Nice.

                   

                  Im due to start 18/70 next week but currently taking this week off to try and heal my calf. Its frustrating but 1st world problems I guess 

                  50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

                  10k 40:16 June 18

                  " I have a plan to make my legs longer by wearing shorter shorts "      

                   

                    mt79 - I am with Piwi on this - start with 3-4 miles at LT - will save you from undesired shock - 6 miles at LT if you didn't do that and if you run your regular mileage is not a great experience, start with 3-4 and add a mile a week/every other week - the result will be the same at the end but much better experience. If I remember correctly, Pfitz has 7 miles LT workout but it is almost at the end of the training cycle.

                    finbad


                    A street-wise Hercules

                       

                        

                      I've been doing 1200 meter repeats the last few weeks to get comfortable running faster, but I want to try a threshold run this week.  How far do you guys run for threshold workouts?  Is 6 miles reasonable?  It looks like threshold pace is slightly faster than 1/2 marathon race pace, so I would think 6 miles would be pretty easy.   

                       

                      Given your concerns about injury I'd maybe start by bridging the gap between your 1200 reps and threshold running- maybe start with 3x 2 miles with a few minutes of steady running in between then 2x 3 miles next time around. It means you can incorporate it into a nice continuous fartlek.

                       

                      your weeks are looking good but I'd say that as you're capable of 6:14 pace in a 5k those 1200s should to be faster, unless you're deliberately doing them at 5k(ish) pace.

                      weatherboy80


                        MT: I'm a big fan of the Daniels 20 min (similar to 3-4 miles) tempo runs especially when early in a cycle or even during a base period to build up speed endurance.  You can even start these off close to half marathon effort to bridge that gap.  Nothing wrong with a uptempo run either.

                         

                        Cal:  Amazing comeback in a very short time.  I'm impressed Smile

                         

                        Fin:  Heal up quickly.  You'll be right back in just a few weeks!

                        5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                        JMac11


                          Andres - Thanks for the info on Houston. I'm still leaning towards CIM based on the info you said, but I'll keep Houston as number 2.

                           

                          Cal - Still amazing work. I could never run the mileage you do and I'm always impressed by the guys that have the dedication to run that much. Even 6 days of running in a row and I need a breather, let alone running 110 MPW. If you get even the most basic LT work in, you are looking at some crazy good times next year. I also agree with you and Brew - there's something to be said about hills that make it "easier" than dead flat, unless you only train on 100% flat terrain.

                           

                          MT - 6 miles at LT continuous is very difficult! I agree with all of the other posters, keep it light to start, either 20 minute continuous tempo work or maybe something like 3x2 if you want more mileage at LT.

                          5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 36:21 (9/18)  |  HM: 1:20:39 (5/17)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                           

                          Next Race: Joe Kleinerman 10K (1/5/19)

                          Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)

                          JTReeves


                            Swim: You certainly have had a rough couple years, which makes the PR all the more impressive. I agree with Cal that you will be able to go even much faster.

                             

                            Cal: Still amazing to think you went from months of no running to a 3:02 in just a few months. 2019 should be a good year if you keep at it.

                             

                            Nimmals: A 75 first half..   What was your goal, sub 2:30?

                             

                            Weather: Enjoy a couple of down weeks; your half cycle was more miles than most people's marathon cycles. I suspect you'll still get some big miles though even in the down weeks 

                             

                            JMac: Good to see you building back up again.

                             

                            MT: I'm impressed with your methodical build-up. I agree with what others said about the tempo length. I know Pfitz builds it up to 7 miles but I never do more than 5 in a row, usually 4. Some (myself included) prefer 2 mile repeats. Like Finbad said, if you go that route you could start with 2 x 2 miles, eventually build it up to 4 x 2 (or 5 x 2 if you are a Daniels maniac like JMac).

                             

                            Piwi: Good idea to give the calf full rest to heal up.

                             

                            Finbad: Likewise, I hope the time off kills your PF. You can ask MT about cross training options as he was the king of that a few years ago as I recall.

                             

                            My week: 65 miles all easy, being careful to let a calf strain recover (maybe getting Piwi a bit jealous, unintentionally?). I was surprised it healed so quickly, since the last time I had this it took a good month before it was back to normal.

                            5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                              Andres - Thanks for the info on Houston. I'm still leaning towards CIM based on the info you said, but I'll keep Houston as number 2.

                               

                               

                              If you are debating between Houston and CIM for a time goal, I'd go with CIM.  Easy choice.

                               

                              1) the weather is a safer bet for CIM.  No guarantees, but safer.

                               

                              2) you train in Central Park, which will prep you beautifully for CIM.  The big obstacle for Houston is the concrete - and I'm not sure you can (or would want to) prep for that in NYC.  I was really surprised at how much the concrete affected me when I ran the Houston Half this January.  I am a very small person who does nearly all her easy runs on concrete sidewalks in Nike Frees.    If anyone can handle a concrete race course, it should be me.  And yet, the course took its toll, even though I was wearing hypercushioned Vaporflys and it was only 13.1 miles.

                              3) As I noted in my CIM race report, there's a real spirit to working together towards a common time goal that you get at CIM.  That's worth a lot.

                              4) If something goes wrong at CIM (weather, sickness, miss the bus), you can reroute to Houston.

                               

                              Neither is a bad choice - Houston has a lot to recommend it, and I'd never discourage someone from doing it.  But...if it's a choice between the two, and your time matters, and neither one is local - go with CIM.

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              Andres1045


                                 

                                I was really surprised at how much the concrete affected me when I ran the Houston Half this January.  I am a very small person who does nearly all her easy runs on concrete sidewalks in Nike Frees.    If anyone can handle a concrete race course, it should be me.  And yet, the course took its toll, even though I was wearing hypercushioned Vaporflys and it was only 13.1 miles.

                                3) As I noted in my CIM race report, there's a real spirit to working together towards a common time goal that you get at CIM.  That's worth a lot.
                                 

                                Neither is a bad choice - Houston has a lot to recommend it, and I'd never discourage someone from doing it.  But...if it's a choice between the two, and your time matters, and neither one is local - go with CIM.

                                Great job getting under 3!  Overall, I agree with you.  I haven't actually run CIM, but that's based on what others have said about it (disregarding Cal's confusing comment that CIM is not easy, yet easier than a flat course).

                                 

                                I do find the concrete comment interesting. I've heard it before from people coming in town to run, but I've never heard anyone around here complain about it (I've also never really noticed it here as being an issue - but maybe I'm not sufficiently aware of things like that). A ton of people around here do a majority of their training and workouts on the easy and soft running trails around Memorial Park and Rice, but race on the roads. Do you think it affected your actual result, or just that the recovery was harder?

                                 

                                I think both will be great next year for those targeting 2:38-43.  Assuming it's similar to 2016, there will be a lot of sub-elite women running those two races trying to sneak in under the OTQ times.  Maybe more in the half in Houston compared to the Houston full.

                                Upcoming races:  Houston HM (January 2019) | A Spring 2019 Marathon (Brighton?)