Forums >Racing>How to prep for two marathons 4 weeks apart
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I had run steamtown this past Sunday and i swore i wouldn't ever run another but i am still trained and want to qualify for Boston. How do i go about training or maintaining for a flat marathon on 11/8? steamtown is a brutal downhill course for the first 13 and levels off.
Of course my quads are still sore, but i would like to know how to approach this.
thanks
2017 goals:
sub 1:30 half
Break on through
I don't know... But the main thing is recovering. If you really don't want to go through another training cycle and find a Spring marathon, I would make sure I recovered, running mostly easy for all four weeks, with a little faster running mixed in, sparingly - maybe with a couple medium long runs in weeks 2 and 3. I just know what didn't work for me in 2008 - trying to maintain my marathon fitness by racing shorter distances every week between the two marathons... The second one was around 24 minutes slower!
By the way, I raced Steamtown too. It looks like I was probably behind you until the half-way point. I kept up my target pace for 18 miles before I had to slow down.
"Not to touch the Earth, not to see the Sun, nothing left to do but run, run, run..."
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I think some people can go back out and race another marathon the next week, or several weeks later (as in your case), without worrying too much about it, because they have done it successfully before. But for others, that is too quick, and they are not recovered.
It is my impression that how quickly one recovers from a marathon seems to be a combination of factors, including
I myself would take it easy for at least several days, I think, and then start stretching out the distance, playing it by feel--so it would depend whether I thought my body was feeling recovered, or still pretty sore. And maybe avoid downhills for the first week?
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
MTA: Upon reflection, I think I mostly agree with beat above. Four weeks is getting pretty close, and the closer you get, I think the more you have to lose and the less you have to gain in your training, so playing it more conservatively tends to make the most sense. But I think this partly depends on your own desires, how you play the risk/reward ratio. How much are you willing to train harder and increase your chance of blowing up or getting injured, because you value the increased chance of the faster time, versus how much do you desire to complete it uninjured and with a decent time.
I myself might try to get some more practice running at desired goal pace, after feeling recovered, and maybe not worry about any more long runs.
(Caveat: I am not a coach.)
Interval Junkie --Nobby
Having done it, and survived the miserable experience, I'll recommend this:
1) Unless you jogged the first one, don't try to PR the second. There are people who can do this, but they're rare.
2) Recovery + Taper. There is no training segment in 4 weeks. The longest run you should probably attempt is 11mi.
3) You should instead focus on MP, some light intervals. Stuff to keep your speed and pace up, but nothing to exercise your endurance.
4) Get 9.5hrs of sleep a night if possible.
5) A professional sports massage can do wonders.
6) If you have any soreness, RICE it immediately.
7) Pool laps might be good for a bit more training if you feel you need to add something else -- not more miles.
Good luck.
2021 Goals: 50mpw 'cause there's nothing else to do
I have done it but did not PR in the second race either. I recommend the following:
(1) Reverse taper from the marathon. Do what you did one day before the marathon on the day after the marathon, two days before the marathon two days after the marathon, etc.
(2) Decide whether you are going to do a two week or a three week taper into your marathon. I personally prefer a two week taper because that seems to work better for me, but you need to do what works for you.
(3) If your reverse taper allows, use the last few weeks of your training plan from the first marathon.
(4) Work on hydrating, eating right, and getting 8 hours + of sleep per night to allow your body to rebuild/repair itself.
(5) Go easy on speed work, fartlek, or any runs faster than marathon pace to avoid aggravating any minor pains into full blown injuries.
Hal Higdon has a page discussing doing multiple marathons and presents a plan for races as close as two weeks apart.
http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51153/Marathon-Multiple-Marathons-Training-Program
I agree with the others that said don't expect to PR in the sencond marathon. I did two marathons about a month apart years ago. Even though i did the first one for training with a plan of running good up to the half and then took it easy in the secnd half, it impacted the second race. The legs were still tired in the latter stages.
I'll provide more info later but i'll go briefly into some info.
I was 1:29 at the half, which was way too fast for me. I should have been 1:35 or so. Those first 13 are no joke. When they say that you go out too fast and you'll pay for it, it happened to me. I thought i was slowing enough since the pace seemed too easy and i was wrong.
Miles 18 and 19 were about a min off my needed pace, but 20 and after were a combination of run and walk. I still finished in 3:23, but i lost a lot of time. My quads were shot for obvious reasons.
Today i am walking like a normal human being and will go out for 2 slow miles tonight. I figured that i still have the fitness and i am capable of running an entire marathon without walking any part of it.
I should be capable of holding a 7:15-7:20 but the 1st 10-13 were sub 7. That is where i had messed up. I have been holding 35-45 miles weeks for some time, so my legs are used to the beating.
Steamtown was a really cool race and i enjoyed the hell out of the crowds. I simply didn't go slow enough in the beginning and paid the price.
I am not committed to running the full in november, but if the weather is decent and i am not in pain, i will try to hold my targeted pace.
I don't know... But the main thing is recovering. If you really don't want to go through another training cycle and find a Spring marathon, I would make sure I recovered, running mostly easy for all four weeks, with a little faster running mixed in, sparingly - maybe with a couple medium long runs in weeks 2 and 3. I just know what didn't work for me in 2008 - trying to maintain my marathon fitness by racing shorter distances every week between the two marathons... The second one was around 24 minutes slower! By the way, I raced Steamtown too. It looks like I was probably behind you until the half-way point. I kept up my target pace for 18 miles before I had to slow down.
I had used the intermediate marathon plan from him and i should follow his 4 week plan for the next. Thanks for the info.
Hal Higdon has a page discussing doing multiple marathons and presents a plan for races as close as two weeks apart. http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51153/Marathon-Multiple-Marathons-Training-Program I agree with the others that said don't expect to PR in the sencond marathon. I did two marathons about a month apart years ago. Even though i did the first one for training with a plan of running good up to the half and then took it easy in the secnd half, it impacted the second race. The legs were still tired in the latter stages.
If your goal is 3:20 as in your sig, 1:35 is way too fast. That would lead to a 10-minute positive split, insanely bad and painful.
Aim for even splits. Smart pacing is not hard. Just do it. Check your splits every mile -- by the mile markers, not your Garmin -- and adjust as needed.
If you can run a 1:29 half -- in the middle of a marathon -- and you've been getting in the overall mileage and long runs, then you should have no problem running 3:10 - 3:15, paced properly. And if your BQ time is 3:20, you will want to aim for 3:15. Next year I think it will take around BQ-3 to get in.
I have been holding 35-45 miles weeks for some time, so my legs are used to the beating.
Actually that's kind of on the low side for marathon training. If you can BQ on that, kudos to you!
3:20 was my goal 2 or 3 years ago. i believe that i was using intermediate 1 and that was about the mileage that was recommended. I noticed that it was a little lower than other plans. i need 3:15 but based on the times for this year i should be at 3:12. I really f-ed up by going too fast in the first half. being too fast by 6 minutes in the first half and 17 too fast in the second was not fun.
I will put some miles in according to higdons' plan but at a slower pace to help recovery. I'll make sure i eat smarter the week or two leading up to it. The last day i can sign up is the wednesday before, so i can make the best decision based on how i feel, weather and if my legs feel fresh enough.
I do have a pass to the pool where i normally run in the pool, but i have been told before that swimming really helped them.
I was afraid to slow down to my needed race pace and didn't want to get passed by so many people, but knowing that now, should make me a smarter runner.
If your goal is 3:20 as in your sig, 1:35 is way too fast. That would lead to a 10-minute positive split, insanely bad and painful. Aim for even splits. Smart pacing is not hard. Just do it. Check your splits every mile -- by the mile markers, not your Garmin -- and adjust as needed. If you can run a 1:29 half -- in the middle of a marathon -- and you've been getting in the overall mileage and long runs, then you should have no problem running 3:10 - 3:15, paced properly. And if your BQ time is 3:20, you will want to aim for 3:15. Next year I think it will take around BQ-3 to get in. Actually that's kind of on the low side for marathon training. If you can BQ on that, kudos to you!
This is kind of a brag, but there is a valuable lesson here. Three weeks ago I ran the Spartathlon, a 153-mile race. The value of starting slow here cannot be overstated. At 26 miles in, I was in 250th place out of 374 starters. At the finish, I was in 28th place (174 finishers).
This is what happens when you put your ego aside and let the idiots fly by you early in a race. They will all come back to you.
Feeling the growl again
You have to take into consideration the specific race he was running. Steamtown is a terribly difficult race to pace, and you simply can't look at it and say "negative split". You lose a hell of a lot of altitude in the first half, mostly in the first 7 miles, making much common pacing advice irrelevant.
Frankly, with a 3:20 goal going through half in that race in 1:35 isn't awfully bad. The problem is that no matter how careful you are, and how you pace, you ARE going to suffer quad damage and that will compromise you for the second half. A positive split is a reasonable goal in this race, as hard as that is for me to say.
I went there with what I felt was a conservative 2:24 goal, IIRC. I went through the half roughly on pace, but my quads were completely trashed in 7 miles. I jogged in something like a 2:32-2:33. 5:12 downhill mile trying very hard not to run fast, but it probably just beat me up more. A 2:17 marathoner dropped out of that race at 17 and could barely walk on his own power when I reconnected with him in the hotel.
It is a fun race but a brutal one. Several of the hills are just ridiculous if you are running fast.
Back to the original question, forget training. Focus on recovery and getting back to your baseline flexibility and pop in your legs.
Steamtown is a unique race. No matter what you do you will pound the hell out of yourself in the first half, and the last half is not really downhill and has several significant climbs. You can't compare pacing on that course to much else. Perhaps Boston, except the Steamtown experience is MUCH more exaggerated.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
I was that idiot, but the miles just felt too easy. I remembered reading everyone's recap of the race from previous years and had just thought that i was backing off enough. lesson learned.
This is kind of a brag, but there is a valuable lesson here. Three weeks ago I ran the Spartathlon, a 153-mile race. The value of starting slow here cannot be overstated. At 26 miles in, I was in 250th place out of 374 starters. At the finish, I was in 28th place (174 finishers). This is what happens when you put your ego aside and let the idiots fly by you early in a race. They will all come back to you.
Lol, that is no joke. I feel if i run this race again, that i will have to train several miles on downhills to simulate the beating our quads take. You never know the severity until you actually run it.
I ran 2 miles last night and it was hell on my quads. It wasn't injured pain, it was wtf are you doing to me, haven't i suffered enough pain. After reading all of the responses here, recovery mode is what i will be looking for. I know there won't be any gains made by trying to run faster or farther until then.
I do firmly believe that i can get another pr since i can learn from these mistakes and properly pace myself. I walked and ran the last 6 miles. I would say there was 30-40% walking being done. so if i can even maintain a 7:30 pace, which is slower than my projected 7:10-15, and run the entire thing, i can so it.
But only my body and the weather will tell what i plan to do.
You have to take into consideration the specific race he was running. Steamtown is a terribly difficult race to pace, and you simply can't look at it and say "negative split". You lose a hell of a lot of altitude in the first half, mostly in the first 7 miles, making much common pacing advice irrelevant. Frankly, with a 3:20 goal going through half in that race in 1:35 isn't awfully bad. The problem is that no matter how careful you are, and how you pace, you ARE going to suffer quad damage and that will compromise you for the second half. A positive split is a reasonable goal in this race, as hard as that is for me to say. I went there with what I felt was a conservative 2:24 goal, IIRC. I went through the half roughly on pace, but my quads were completely trashed in 7 miles. I jogged in something like a 2:32-2:33. 5:12 downhill mile trying very hard not to run fast, but it probably just beat me up more. A 2:17 marathoner dropped out of that race at 17 and could barely walk on his own power when I reconnected with him in the hotel. It is a fun race but a brutal one. Several of the hills are just ridiculous if you are running fast. Back to the original question, forget training. Focus on recovery and getting back to your baseline flexibility and pop in your legs. Steamtown is a unique race. No matter what you do you will pound the hell out of yourself in the first half, and the last half is not really downhill and has several significant climbs. You can't compare pacing on that course to much else. Perhaps Boston, except the Steamtown experience is MUCH more exaggerated.