Forums >Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
Resident Historian
OK, I'm assuming they'll have a group of buses assigned for your start time. If you feel you'll too far back and will need to pass people in a crowd, probably the best you can do is get on the first bus for your start time, do your business quickly and head for the start line.But there's 1/3 less runners this year than 2019, so the course should be nowhere near as crowded.
Neil
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------“Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson
I should think about it. I was just told that the race actually starts at 9 am - so, I would prefer to be there by that time and run with some faster runners, hopefully - though, you cannot control that. But I hope I will be given some allocated time close to that 9 am - ideally I would like to eliminate big crowds, sort things out before racing (porta-potties basically) and have some people to run with. It's kind of nice that we probably be able to start running on our own schedule. Kind of unusual...
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
RIP Milkman
My guess is they will assign start times by expected pace. They've been at this a long time, figure they'll get that part right at least. I still imagine though the first 3 miles will be a disaster crowding wise with how narrow those streets are. There will be people who start too early compared to the very precise corral system.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
I think they control crowding by sending batches of buses according to start time. Start times will be handed out by Q-time (as in the corral system), and the buses will leave in order of start time. One can't get on a bus that will arrive before one's start time. When the bus arrives, there's nowhere to settle in, so go peer, warm up, and go.
Still looking for any advice for people on the 4% vs Next% and general running downhill.
Anyway, given we were speaking about this before, I think this is a really interesting thread that's going on over at LRC about marathon pace running:
Is Marathon Pace actually useful in training?
Mother of Cats
I have found the original 4% to be more stable than the Next% when running downhill. Which is diametrically opposed to your experience.
And yeah, I meant to get back to the "benefits of MP" discussion but got distracted. Essentially my coach is a big believer that marathon pace has benefits to all runners, and so he encourages doing some work at it each week.
I'm honestly not quite as big on MP as he is. I think that marathoners should be doing a fair amount of work at marathon pace, but work at tempo is important too, as is just overall mileage. For non marathoners, I think there's some benefit to doing MP work, but I don't think it's an every week sort of thing - I think better to alternate sessions between work at 10 mile pace, HM pace, and marathon pace (plus some Tinman CV stuff). Each hits a slightly different system.
What I think always gets lost in those discussions is that the "magic" is in the overall balancing and blending of different workouts with recovery over time. When you start focusing on the benefits of one single type of workout versus another, you lose sight of that.
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Another related brain dropping:
People wax rhapsodic about the physiologic benefits of working at marathon pace. And then they do workouts at their GOAL marathon pace, which is not their current marathon pace. Which means that they are working a different system and not getting the specific benefits that they claim to be focusing on.
I see this again and again with people doing workouts like "3x3 miles at marathon pace" - they almost ALWAYS do the workout at something between marathon pace and half marathon pace (big clue - if you need to slow down to a recovery jog or even walk for a bit after doing 3 miles at "marathon pace" it wasn't your marathon pace). Which is still a hard workout and probably has some benefits. But it's not marathon pace, and you're not reaping the gains you think you're targeting.
(it's those people that never seem to be able to race a marathon at the pace that they were training at)
Thanks DW. I'll stick with my 4% shoes then!
Totally agree on your second post regarding goal MP vs. current. No idea what the purpose of that workout is. I have a MP workout tomorrow. I'd like to go run it between 5:50 and 6:00, which is what my goal is for CIM, but in no universe am I in the shape currently, so it'll be more in the 6:00-6:10 range. I'm just hoping when I hit 14 at MP in 6 weeks, it'll be at that right pace. You should be training for what MP feels like, which is different than running at what 5:50 (for me) feels like. Very different training. I was even doing LT work earlier this summer at a slower pace than what my current MP is at because I was so out of shape!
I also agree with your first post. That's why I'm surprised with your training though because there is SO much focus on MP (it feels like it's weekly), but it sounds like that's more of a coach issue. Do you ever just blow off his workouts given this?
I also plan on incorporating more work of 60 minutes at MP. This (at least according to Daniels) is equivalent to 20 minutes at LT. It's a good way to get a long tempo in during marathon training in a different fashion than 20 minute tempo runs.
Problem Child
I like marathon paced workouts during a training cycle and it is a big part of the Hanson's method. It gives me a ton of time to practice race day effort even if I'm doing them at a goal pace. Oddly enough, I think I might be one of the rare people where my goal pace was something I was capable of without knowing it, and it helped build my confidence to go for it. I actually remember reading about marathon pace before I was a marathon runner and it said it's pretty much useless for anything other than marathon runners.
I learned really quickly this year about "train where you're at not where you want to be" and it most definitely wasn't enjoyable. I'm probably 30 seconds per mile slower than what I'd say is my ultimate goal (another sub 3) and accepting I'm not in 2019 PR shape has been extremely difficult for me. The heart wants what the heart wants and some times the heart has to break to know it's okay to want.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
I'm 8 weeks out from a marathon, so I'm doing MP work pretty much weekly (though not this week, since I'm racing 5th Avenue Mile).
After Grandma's in mid-June I didn't do a MP workout until July 31. I don't do very many MP runs when not in the depths of marathon training. When I am marathon training, then I'll do them weekly.
I do not know, really - after my first experience with 4% at my latest marathon, I have a feeling these things are overrated and, accordingly - overpriced - I definitely didn't feel faster in those and, arguably, running in 4% added to my fade at the end instead of, as was promised, keeping me fresh - I am even thinking about getting back to my tested and trusted New Balance 1400 v2 (yes, I still have them from like 5-7 years ago or Adidas Adizero 4 - those are the best, imho.
As for MP workouts, I think those are very important - and I tend to agree that they should probably be done at the effort of a marathon pace. not a specific pace. Though, I do not see a problem with running at specific MP also - if you are not in that shape, you will not be able to keep it up (or your HR will go through the roof) - so, at the end you should be able to get to the "right" pace
Ash
I’ve been guilty of running marathon pace rather than effort, recently, and don’t regret it a bit.
Aren’t there multiple marathon efforts anyway? If you are running an even pace, then the first third might feel different to the second third and almost certainly to the third third. Isn’t there a place for running at each of those efforts in training? Longer blocks at just slower – yes please. A medium-long block right on it – I’ll have that too thanks. Going for a goal pace that you aren’t quite ready for might be just the ticket for replicating late marathon effort. Mechanically, that’s the pace you want your body to be able to handle even if the energy systems aren’t quite there yet. Treated with respect and in context of progression toward a goal, I’ll take a bit of that as well.
Next: Ballarat, April 28, Pacing 3:50
Best: 5k 19:46 (Parkrun, 2016), 10k 40:37 (Track, 2022), Half 1:26:41 (2016), Full 3:00:23 (2021)
I’ve been guilty of running marathon pace rather than effort, recently, and don’t regret it a bit. Aren’t there multiple marathon efforts anyway? If you are running an even pace, then the first third might feel different to the second third and almost certainly to the third third. Isn’t there a place for running at each of those efforts in training? Longer blocks at just slower – yes please. A medium-long block right on it – I’ll have that too thanks. Going for a goal pace that you aren’t quite ready for might be just the ticket for replicating late marathon effort. Mechanically, that’s the pace you want your body to be able to handle even if the energy systems aren’t quite there yet. Treated with respect and in context of progression toward a goal, I’ll take a bit of that as well.
Well put Marby,
I'm also guilty as charged. I suspect Darkwave had me in mind with those comments. To be fair, the 3 x 3 mi I recently did was threshold effort. But even for marathon pace segments, I'm often running goal pace rather than current/previous marathon pace. In general I tend to run all workouts on the harder side effort wise. It's just how I'm wired and how I like to train.
2:52:16 (2018)
Intl. correspondent
Wait so Jmac is looking for advice on wearing cheater shoes on a cheater course 😂
Oh the highs and lows of marathon training. Sunday after the long run I was thinking of quitting training, feeling really shitty, thinking how can I run a marathon if I can't complete a 16 mile run well.
Overnight Sunday to Monday the sore arm from the vax passed and things got well again I guess.
I wonder how much of the side effects from the vax are from poor form when the nurse sticks a needle on your arm versus the actual vaccine.
Anyway, a nice workout on Tuesday, then a monstrous 6x1 mile yesterday which went well, it's said to be a 10K predictor and it predicts a time around 37:40, very close to PR shape.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Wait so Jmac is looking for advice on wearing cheater shoes on a cheater course 😂 Oh the highs and lows of marathon training. Sunday after the long run I was thinking of quitting training, feeling really shitty, thinking how can I run a marathon if I can't complete a 16 mile run well. Overnight Sunday to Monday the sore arm from the vax passed and things got well again I guess. I wonder how much of the side effects from the vax are from poor form when the nurse sticks a needle on your arm versus the actual vaccine. Anyway, a nice workout on Tuesday, then a monstrous 6x1 mile yesterday which went well, it's said to be a 10K predictor and it predicts a time around 37:40, very close to PR shape.
I’ve been here man. It sucks. Really. It does. I hit points of saying ‘fuck it. If I get in Boston 2023 that’s literally it and I don’t give a shit what my time is.’ I previously told my wife I’d quit running when I ran Boston, and a 5 miler was my longest run at that time.
glad you got your shot. I was wondering how the side effects were. This is the first shot for you right? Two shot dose or just the single?
I like seeing your training and use it as motivation sometimes to go for a run. Seeing other people out there online running sometimes works as an accountability group for me. ‘If they can do it what excuse do I have?’ Even yesterday’s run I was actively trying to sabotage it by eating and drinking garbage an hour before and saying ‘it’s too hot.’ This forum and the people online were the reason I went. The whole TDP thing came to mind, ‘train where you’re at’ as well as having lived in smoke filled air for the past month (feels like a year) was why I went. One 16 mile run doesn’t make youre whole training, and maybe every race can’t be a PR or a magestic experience. Sometimes there has to be a reminder. The highs are so high because the lows are so low. It’s easier to go downhill than uphill but going uphill is going to make the downhill so much better.