2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 421 times)

flavio1980


Intl. correspondent

    DW - as usual you had a very busy week. that workouts 3, 2 1 mile is quite interesting.

     

    JT - thanks mate, I wish, I’m squatting with 6kg at the moment, no that’s not a typo.

    Big week from you!

    3 weeks to the race, is it time for taper madness yet?

     

    RP  - very decent week, I can see the air quality has improved dramatically.

     

    Jmac - Thanks for the great race report. 

    It’s not possible to run fast in a 10 degree slope no matter the shoe, I reckon you have to almost walk.

    And the cheater shoe would make it even harder.

    PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

    Up next: Rest and recover

    Tool to generate Strava weekly

    flavio1980


    Intl. correspondent

      I forgot to mention. I've tried out a gel belt this Sunday with 4 maurten gels. It worked out quite alright. I'm able to consume the gels at easy pace, I'm not sure if I'll be able to down them at MP, but should.

      They're jelly so I can't quite just swallow them, it's like I have to chew them a bit.

      PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

      Up next: Rest and recover

      Tool to generate Strava weekly

      JTReeves


        I forgot to mention. I've tried out a gel belt this Sunday with 4 maurten gels. It worked out quite alright. I'm able to consume the gels at easy pace, I'm not sure if I'll be able to down them at MP, but should.

        They're jelly so I can't quite just swallow them, it's like I have to chew them a bit.

         

        I wonder what kind of belt you got Flavio? I got the below one but found putting SIS gels into the holders was a nightmare (too tight a fit) and more importantly, getting them out was equally difficult. I'd need to carry pliers and a blowtorch with me during the race to get them out. Thus I'm going with Darkwave's pin-inside-shorts method. I tried that out on my last 22 miler and it worked well.

         

        2:52:16 (2018)

        flavio1980


        Intl. correspondent

          JT - It's a tube like thing, the gels are put in horizontally. It is comfortable though, I was worried about friction against the skin but in the end I put it on top of my t-shirt and it worked out alright.

          Gel Belt

          PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

          Up next: Rest and recover

          Tool to generate Strava weekly


          Elite Jogger

            Flavio - Are you fussy about shorts and do they need to be a certain length/brand?  I wore a pair of Ronhill Marathon twin shorts for my PR in 2019 and they were sooo comfortable and convenient for carrying gels. I had 2 gels in the back gel pockets and 2 on each side of the inner thigh pockets and I wasn't aware of them during the race and were easy to access. I’ve tried the gel belt and attached with safety pins to the shorts and didn’t like either option.  And yeah the maurten gels take a while to get down, but at least they don’t make you sick!

             

            https://www.ronhill.com/products/mens-tech-marathon-twin-short

            5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

            JMac11


            Milkman

              Thanks everyone for comments. Glad that the downhill wasn't something I could really fix, although I imagine I could have done better with some practice. I'm sure there are trail runners who are good at this.

               

              Flavio - I agree with mikkey on this: I take 4 gels with me and can fit them all into one back zipper pocket. It's bulky for sure, but it works. You just have to tie the waistband very tight. I think DW takes 6+ gels so it makes sense why she needs to pin them.

               

              Regarding Maurten, you definitely need to chew them, or at least mash it with your tongue to the roof of your mouth. But they're SO much better than other gels! I actually enjoy the texture of them

               

              Mikkey - come on, I've been good the past 2 marathons! No taper issues. Probably jinxing this one though.

               

              OMR - hope you're getting a lot of eccentric heel drops in!

               

              JT - now I get to be extra annoying as the Taper Czar - what does your taper look like???

               

              DW - I think we sometimes get too confident in ourselves when TDPs drop into the 130's because it feels so much better than the 150+ we dealt with all summer. I still think back to the spring when I was thinking how hot it was because my shirt was getting wet: now it feels like it's a cool day because only my shirt got wet

               

              Cal - running Boston with no pressure sounds great. I will have to do that post-retirement from all this silly PR chasing as I didn't get to enjoy it the one time I ran it. Don't even remember a single thing beyond heartbreak because it was so hot and I was in so much pain.

              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

              Next Race: Unknown 

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                 

                 

                RP  - very decent week, I can see the air quality has improved dramatically.

                 

                I was outside yesterday and could see blue sky. My first though was "hmm. It is weird, that I think it is weird, that I can see a blue sky." I checked the Air Quality and it was a 4 and even that was a "why would I check the air quality when it is a 4?" Yeah, it's been a while. Thankfully another lightening strike started another fire nearby. 30 minutes away the air is a 150, and I can kind of see it rolling in along the mountains. It looks like fog, and I don't live close enough to the water for fog to roll in at 75F.

                The saddest thing was people around Lake Tahoe being upset evacuated residents were being sent along the West Shore instead of Southeast (road was closed) towards the fire to go around the mountain another way. Just pathetic honestly.

                 

                Finally the most popular way into South Lake Tahoe for people living in California is open.

                https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article254381838.html

                Most people taking Interstate 80 are from San Francisco, or Oakland and drop down towards Lake Tahoe at Truckee, CA. It's annoying to see how much the forget about buying groceries and gas when they're only 2 hours from home.....in the same state.

                 

                Oh yeah, I know a woman with a similar Flip Belt.

                 

                JMac I prefer the shotgun method for Marten gels. Seriously. No chewing. Are you taking any days this week off speed/tempo work after the race?

                AS for running downhill fast....this is the only time I've gone full speed for a downhill run. To quote a great movie about NASCAR "fast is on the edge of out of control" and I was literally maxed out seeing 5:00/mi pace at some points knowing literally 2 seconds faster was going to be the difference between falling and finishing. I think part of this might come just from comfort/experience running downhill. Training for Revel Mt. Charleston I did a M paced run about 7 miles long. Part of running this downhill was learning NOT to heel strike and to lean much more into the downhill than I'm comfortable with. Seriously, it was kind of scary because I was always afraid I'd fall on my face. During the marathon I looked over and saw a woman leaning backwards against the hill and realized why I was told to lean INTO the downhill. Leaning back you're not only heel striking you're destroying you quads. Leaning into it is more natural. I'm sure if you had to run 7% downhills a mile or two long you'd really learn how to master them.  Honestly, maybe I'm just a lot bit crazy and willing to take stupid chances on things (knowing I can fail) just to see what happens. One of those "It is amazing what you can do when you get out of your own way" and (another NASCAR movie quote) "You do it my way and give me an honest effort and I'll beat you every time." things.

                 

                How long was the uphill you had to run? I've never been one to really want to run hills, and I've just learned it's so much more important to avoid blowing up than keeping pace. As for sprinting at the end, I think everyone can. The book Endure talks about how the body can do sprints like you did after "being fully taxed and gassed" when called upon to do so. Something about "the body won't let itself literally run 100% and run out of energy" or something along those lines.

                 

                 

                sierra nevad pale ale, or do you want me to try and smuggle in some 805s or Bear Republic/Lagunitas? I think there's actually a place nearby specializing in alcoholic beverages and I'd invite a few other people I know are doing the race over. If you are an IPA type of guy I'm your huckleberry. I'll bring some local tall boys from Revision Brewing down for you to crack open and take home.

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 51

                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                darkwave


                Mother of Cats

                  . I think DW takes 6+ gels so it makes sense why she needs to pin them.

                   

                  9 gels.  I need 9 gels.  I'm also fairly certain that I'm the smallest person currently posting on this thread by at least 20 pounds.....I just burn hot, I guess.  I've bonked on 5 gels.

                   

                  Re: downhill running - a) I actually ran down a 10% incline on Saturday when returning home post workout (took a new route).  And by "ran" I mean tenderly measured my way down.  No way you can make up time on that.

                   

                  I'm honestly trying to figure out the downhill running thing myself.  I used to be a very good downhill runner - the type that would pass much better runners on the descents.  But in the past 18 months, I've lost that.  So I've been trying to figure out the puzzle.  Staying relaxed is part of it.  But I think other key parts are ankle stability and ankle flexibility.  Strong anterior tibialis and quads are also part.  You need to have some sort of confidence in your ability to control your descent, and that comes from strength in the muscles in the front that work eccentrically to control.

                   

                  That's my theory, anyway.  I've been working on my anterior tibialis a lot recently, and my comfort (and thus speed) on downhill routes has improved substantially.

                   

                  While I'm here - JTReeves - you asked why I did my marathon workout on Wednesday?  A rally was planned for DC on Saturday in front of the capital to protest the treatment of those arrested on January 6 (phrasing as neutrally as possible).  Early last week, it wasn't clear how big the rally might be, or how much of a police/National Guard presence would be required. And when the National Guard is deployed in a major way, they take over part of Hains Point, which is my preferred place for marathon workouts.

                   

                  So,  because there was some small chance that I might not be able to run on HP on Saturday, and because I hadn't done a long run last weekend, I just moved the long run to Wednesday.

                   

                  (and the rally ended up being all of 400 people that behaved themselves)

                  Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                   

                  And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                  CalBears


                     

                    Cal - running Boston with no pressure sounds great. I will have to do that post-retirement from all this silly PR chasing as I didn't get to enjoy it the one time I ran it. Don't even remember a single thing beyond heartbreak because it was so hot and I was in so much pain.

                     

                    Well, it's all relative you know. I guess, I misled you and others about lack of "pressure" in Boston. No pressure in a sense I am not going for some crazy PR (which just unrealistic at this point). No pressure in a sense I will not die, if I am not in top 10 of my AG - as I cannot control the field and I am strongly aware there are so many fast runners in my AG (heck, it's pretty hard to get Top 10 at CIM even - it is so competitive). But I will be targeting some goals - top 10 AG is one of them Smile, Moose Mug is another one (sub 2:56 for me would do that). And anything slower than sub 3 would really, really disappoint me - so, yes, no pressure...

                     

                    OMR - sorry to hear about the issue. Hopefully, you caught it early and will not take too much time to get back 100 mpw like we used to do few years ago.

                     

                    10% incline - one of the routes at local Mt Diablo trail, has 4 pretty even straight downhill miles with 13-14% descent - very stable decline over those 4 miles, I think, there are only three short flat sections in those 4 miles - that means the actual decline % is more than 14% Smile. Very cool route - not very technical but still - rock structure, if you fall, you will be sorry (I did once - but that was the only time when I ran sub 5 mile Smile. Pretty tough workout if you run it - when I run it for the first time and keep a decent pace - 7-8 minutes pace, it usually takes my quads 3-4 days to recover Smile. Second run a week later would take couple of days to recover and then third and next runs would become a nothing. But yes, it takes a lot of concentration to run that steep for that long. And I think it is trainable.

                     

                    Maurten gel. Still do not understand what is the fuss about? I thought it's easy to digest judging on previous feedback - now it seems like it has a "structure"? Why everybody ignores Powerbar gels, I can't understand - easiest gel to digest, I swear, it's almost liquid, but not - it has 50-100mg of caffeine (some of the kinds) and it is easy to buy in Europe (harder to get in the US, though amazon has it but only with 50 mg, Apple flavor). I used this gel since my marathon number 1 in 2011 - still think it is the best of all.

                     

                    Mikkey - I ordered the shorts you recommended - I liked the way you can carry gels in them - seems to be very convenient. SO, we will be running in the same shorts at Boston 2023, I guess. Any suggestions on a t-shirt to make it even more interesting Smile

                    paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                    JTReeves


                       

                      JT - now I get to be extra annoying as the Taper Czar - what does your taper look like???

                       

                       

                      This week should be around 65 miles, next about 45-50, and the final week probably 20 or so prior to the race (it's a Saturday race). Planning on an 18 mile LR Sunday, then 1 week out 13-14 mi "LR". For the final week I may revert to my old habits of a more extreme (at least in your assessment) taper, taking the 2 days before the race fully off.  But maybe I'll do the JMac prescription, we'll see.

                       

                      Flavio: Looks like a comfortable belt; I'd still be fumbling around trying to get the gels out though I think.

                       

                      RP: Revel Mt. Charleston...another downhill course?! That one looks even more extreme than St. George.

                       

                      Darkwave: Smart to move the LR given the rally and logistics. Fortunately it turned out to be low-key.

                      2:52:16 (2018)

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                         

                        9 gels.  I need 9 gels.  I'm also fairly certain that I'm the smallest person currently posting on this thread by at least 20 pounds.....I just burn hot, I guess.  I've bonked on 5 gels.

                         

                        Re: downhill running - (heavily edited)

                         

                          Staying relaxed is part of it.  But I think other key parts are ankle stability and ankle flexibility.  Strong anterior tibialis and quads are also part.  You need to have some sort of confidence in your ability to control your descent, and that comes from strength in the muscles in the front that work eccentrically to control.

                         

                        That's my theory, anyway.  I've been working on my anterior tibialis a lot recently, and my comfort (and thus speed) on downhill routes has improved substantially.

                         

                        9 gels? SHEESH! Is that close to your weight in grams in gels? Back in the "body building" phase of my life it was 1-1.5g protein/lb body weight and I think you're getting close to it. I did 5 for CIM and after discussing it most of the reason I carried 5 was "what if you drop one" since I wasn't using race day nutrition. Maybe this helps you start marathons slower. Extra weight.

                         

                        I think you're pretty correct about downhill running. Confidence is a MAJOR part of it. I remember learning to run downhill for trails and not having the confidence to step on this rock or plant my foot there. After a while I kind of learned "if you DON'T have the confidence you WILL have a problem. I also think a lot of it has to do with the ability to "train like you race" so I'm still mind blown by people who trail in pancake flat states like CommanderKeen who can run a rolling hill course, or an ultra marathon. Weights/crosstraining/probaly helps a lot with the overall abuse the legs take. I think doing a stair stepper for a workout could help if you can do it backwards and constantly pound the legs for a downhill session simulation after a hard run.

                         

                         

                        EDIT: I never heard anything about the Gathering of the Juggalos Men and Women Supporting January 6. Must have been uninteresting.  Probably didn't even have face paint.

                         

                        RP: Revel Mt. Charleston...another downhill course?! That one looks even more extreme than St. George.

                         

                        I'm not doing this one. I'm done with the "major downhill" courses. The downhill wasn't really the problem. The temperature change was. I think it was close to a 40 degree shift in temps during the marathon with the later miles being the hottest. The one in Vegas SUCKS ASS for a finisher area. Literally no shade other than the small "recovery" tent (next to medical) where half and full marathon runners can sit. "oh you want food? you can't come back once you leave." Revel sucks. Cool medal, but overall I'd rather NOT run another one, and it has NOTHING to do with the major downhill.

                         

                        oh yeah, the recovery....FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCKKK. Getting out of bed probably 12 hours later hurt like no other. I literally thought "do all marathons hurt this much and have I just forgotten because I took last year off?" It was fucking BRUTAL trying to walk from the bed to the toilet. I also ran a 3:05:26 aiming for a 3:03, and followed it up with a 2:59 at CIM because the 2020 BQ cutoff was something lke BQ-4:53. Thankfully I didn't get to sit around and find THAT piece of information out in September or October.

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 51

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10


                        Elite Jogger

                           

                          Mikkey - I ordered the shorts you recommended - I liked the way you can carry gels in them - seems to be very convenient. SO, we will be running in the same shorts at Boston 2023, I guess. Any suggestions on a t-shirt to make it even more interesting Smile

                           

                          Lovely! ❤️  I used to get free 2XU gear when I was a pacer and their tops are amazing, very comfortable and lightweight. Great week from you btw and if I was a betting man I’d predict a Moose Mug time at Boston - assuming civilised weather of course Smile

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                          flavio1980


                          Intl. correspondent

                            Mikkey - Yeah, I’m fussy about that. How else will I suntan my legs?

                             

                            Jmac- No, I’m not going to run with shorts that look like I pooped myself. Seriously though, it’s weight distribution.

                            The weight being up higher than the waist makes all the difference to me.

                             

                            Cal - No, not complaining about Maurten gels, just describing how I consume them. They’re perfect. Speaking of that, I need to buy another 2 boxes. Thanks for the recommendation, I"ll try out those powerbar gels in the future.

                             

                            JT - I also thought I’d get in trouble, but it turned out surprisingly simple to manoeuvre. 

                             

                            me - Something else I need to figure out. In the last 3 long runs I had to stop to pee, LOL, I guess with the marathon being later in the day that won't be a problem 🤞

                            PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                            Up next: Rest and recover

                            Tool to generate Strava weekly

                            OMR


                              JT:  Thanks, I don’t think there is a lot I can do to speed up recovery, except for trying to not push too quickly.  But, I think it’s about ready.

                              The bad news in all of this is that we have had some wonderful running weather so far this fall, and I am missing out on all of it.  Saturday morning’s forecast is 41 degrees with a light wind; just about perfect for a half marathon.  Oh well.

                               

                              JMac: No eccentric heel drops yet.  This morning is the first morning where I cannot find any hot spots with my thumb, so hopefully starting to strengthen things won’t aggravate it at this point.  Also hoping to get in a short run/walk session sometime today.

                               

                              flavio:. That belt looks uncomfortable to me.  I have some Asics shorts that have 4 pockets around the back, and a small one in the front.  Wouldn’t be able to handle the 9 gels that Dwave needs for a marathon, but I’ve usually gotten by with five, so they work for me.

                               

                              RP: Good to see you’re getting some better air quality these days.  I agree with you about form running downhill.  As a tall person, I find it really difficult to lean forward on steeper descents because of the fear of falling.

                               

                              cal: Thanks.  Ah, the good old days of 100mpw (although to be honest, I was more consistently around 80-85).  I’m not sure what winter will be like here, in terms of access to a treadmill without needing to wear a mask, so I’m hoping to just get some consistent work in as I can, and probably put off any longer racing until sometime next spring or summer. And this academic year is going to be a crazy one for me.

                              JMac11


                              Milkman

                                RP - I'm all in on the Sierra Nevada post race that they have. Last time I had to drive back to SF, so I only had 2, but this year I can have a bunch and then go take a mid-day nap 

                                 

                                DW - I do imagine there's a strength component, but I'm more curious what the right technique is. I tried all approaches and they all failed (but maybe that's because of the weakness)

                                 

                                Cal - hey if it works for you, that's great. I find the texture/structure of gels to be very important. I tried Power Gel once and gagged: I can't stand that watery texture. Again, I have a very sensitive stomach though and it is my #1 demon in marathons, so Maurten has been a lifesaver.

                                 

                                JT - I'm a big fan of exponential tapers as well. I like the 65 miles you're running this week. I'd even go higher in week 2, something in the low 50s, and then taper big time. The only issue I have with the 2 days off is that you are someone who runs 6-7 days a week right? When was the last time you took 2 days off in a row? Your body is not used to that, and it can really throw you off. I think it's better to just go out for 3 miles at a slow pace (8:30-9:00) than to take two days off in a row. My last 4 days are 7 5 0 3, so it's basically like I'm taking 2 straight days off (almost 3 days off because 5 is less than any run I'll do for 18 weeks), but the 3 miles is just to get the rust out.

                                 

                                Anyway if you didn't notice a difference last marathon vs. the 2 days off, then you can stick with your plan.

                                 

                                Flavio - that means you're hydrating too close to the start of your run. I mentioned this in my race report, but I don't drink anything after 2 hours to start time. The idea is you get in the port-a-potty about 30 minutes before the race after your body has had time to process everything, and then you're good. I've learned over the years that I was overhydrating the morning of. It's much better to hydrate the day before rather than drinking a liter of water the morning of.

                                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Unknown